PMBD

Normally I would never start a new topic, but this really shocked me. I thought I was reading it wrong.

Sirona Sims (http://www.sironasims.com/) has opened a Premium Section where for $9.95 you get full access to the Premium downloads for 1 year. She starts with 6 Sims.

 ???

And yet another site I didn't even know. Didn't miss anything I guess. 10 bucks a year for 6 sims 2 sims! Woah that's cheaper than T$R, this person is really reasonable. Surely not a ripoff. *sarcasm mode off*

Ah fuck it, who cares for that shitty site.... ::)

What is ironic is that her "About" section still lists her as providing free Sims 2 downloads.  I had sent a email about a corrupted default skin and requested a fix, but never got a response since June of this year.  I wonder if monetary donations are now required for response?   ::)

Corvidophile owns sironasims,  she was originally from mts.   :-\

Those two sims that are premium, I could have sworn I have seen uploaded for free elsewhere??? ???  I thought she posted them originally on GOS?

I actually have some of her work from MTS. What I have I like.

Corvidophile what are you thinking? This I find really really disappointing. If you felt you needed your own site fine, I'm all for that. Go you. But donations for content moves you to the other side. 10$ 20$  mo/yr whatever, you are now a paysite. What a HUGE step backwards. Now we'll have to find you a bunk.

Yeah the dark elf looks like the free one at GOS  http://www.digitalperversion.net/gardenofshadows/index.php?topic=3929.msg117972#msg117972 (http://www.digitalperversion.net/gardenofshadows/index.php?topic=3929.msg117972#msg117972)  But the download link is expired!

She is now charging for formerly free items!

Oh, wow. What a slap in the face, eh? That site has been up a long time now. I would never have guessed. This is a very big let down.

Given her infrequent updates- since she usually only updates once every 3-4 months on her site and her finds site has been virtually abandoned for months- I don't see turning into a paysite working out to well for her. Paysite owners have to update frequently at least with new donation packs or items to make any kind of money at all and she doesn't exactly push stuff out like a lumber mill here.

How sad. :/  I would have expected better conduct from an MTS creator.  Has anyone emailed her yet to ask her to reconsider and go free?

I was surprised and disappointed to see this because she was originally at MTS and has also posted here occasionally. And yes if you look at some of the comments on her "Premium" Sims they date back to 2008.

 :-\

And I also had tons of her stuff from MTS and Sirona Sims and liked them alot, so this really bums me out.

Is there any chance at all that this is a fluke or something? It's just so awful to see that corvidophile would go pay, given her previous relationships with GoS and MTS. Is it possible that she handed her site over to someone else or was hacked or... or... or? :(

I was thinking almost everything you were, It really sucks to see such a veteran free creator go pay...

Thats what I'm most shocked by; she's a a MTS2 and GoS member yet has gone pay? WTF?

Drug addiction? Amnesia? Blackmail being committed against her? I don't know what caused it, but it sucks in a manner most vile. I really hope that she doesn't expect us to let this pass by without a word, though, because, ah fuck noes! Garbage of the highest stink is going on, so much so that I'm at a loss for words on how to describe it until I've consumed this pot of coffee to kick start my brain.

Wow, that's disappointing. :(  And what makes it worse is that, if she needed donations to keep her site going, she probably could have asked for them and gotten donations pretty easily (it's not like her site is completely unknown).  This looks like flat-out greed to me.

I am severly disappointed. Has she given any reasons yet? Corvi is quite well known and respected, if she needed help with server fees then she just needs to say.

If she was also being hosted at a place that was cost prohibitive there are also people in the community that run sites or own/rent servers that have space to spare for hosting another site, not to mention plenty of pre-existing sites that would gladly take her in as a resident creator if she doesn't have the money or time to run a site and just wants to create.

I seem to remember her pulling down some/all of her downloads off of MtS2 for some reason in a huff.  I know there was a reason to the tantrum, but it's not coming to mind atm.  I know I didn't download anything from her after that.

See, that's the thing. Corvidophile knew that because she availed herself of the helpful forums at mysimsite.net when she was setting up her original site. I know she had her site set up first on a free webhost like freewebs with a domain name pointed to it. At some point it looks like she purchased hosting from hostgator (around the time she added the finds part of her site.) That makes it even more upsetting to me...she knows there are free alternatives, she knows there's help in setting up a free site and yet she still goes pay after a year or so of being free? It's weird.

Is there any possibility that her Donation Packs are a time delay issue?  So that all of her stuff is free but if you donate you get it sooner than everyone else?  Because that I would so not have a problem with.

 :o

Seriously?

I honestly don't know whether to laugh or cry after reading that. I can't even come up with an appropriate macro in response.

No. Some (if not all) of those Sims were free already. She now is changing it. Which is dumb, because those Sims have been around long enough, anyone who wanted them will have already downloaded them - before they were 'premium'.


You're likely to find yourself alone in this. I, for one, would very much have a problem with that. Pay is still pay. I don't care what excuses paysite owners want to pull out of their asses, pay is pay and ransoming downloads for cash is pay (thus, wrong!), even if it's only a matter of time. Liana does that sort of thing, and you'll see no one here praising her for it or expressing their contentment with her method. Why? Because bullshit is bullshit, no matter which bull shits it.

She wouldn't be the first MTS creator to go pay and likely not the last, unfortunately.

I see what you mean about it still being bullshit.  I guess it would just bother me less (other particulars depending) because everyone would have access, eventually.  But then I guess it wouldn't be much different from when TSR first went pay and you could get everything you wanted if you were patient enough to check the free stuff everyday.  I was thinking of some site I saw for another game that had a subscriber model but mainly for beta testing.  Donators got the beta mods first and would report on any bugs and then the mods would be out for everyone shortly after.  Wish I could remember what game that was; something from the Orange Box I think?

It seems it's a moot point regardless.  That's sad.  I have some nice stuff from her floating around in my game. 

It's still pay, and seeing as we're anti-pay I doubt you'll find anyone here who supports that idea. Also, several people at GoS have pointed out that the prenium sims resemble ones she had for free. Also, her creations are very GoS in nature so why didn't she just use mediafire/box.net like all the creators there do then post at Gos instead?

If she pulled her stuff at GOS, maybe she has left there in a huff too...just speculating  :-\
I really like some of her creations & have always respected her for that so I find this disappointing to say the least.

?
How can you say that HERE? Frankly why are you here? 'cause that's still a paysite, in all its glory shittiness. And all paysites are bad and destroy the community. Community should be equality and fairness. We're on the extreme line about paysites here in PMBD, if you're in the middle line you shoudln't even be here. That's illogical. :(

Pay is pay - that means any money exchanged for CC or Mods is a paysite- This means Sironasims, Rensim, XMSims, Around the Sims= Pay even if you are only paying to get items first, or paying to download entire section of content all at once, or gettting shitloads of stuff for 2$ US - still pay. It Still Violates EA's EULA, and it still violates the EULA"s of the programmers tools - many of which require things made with said tools to be fileshare friendly, or free. Also Cordophile merely edits the work of many other creators - free and pay who do not wish their content to be placed on paysites at all if they are free creators, or on OTHER Paysites if they are pay creators. This means that she is being doubly unethical because she is starting a paysite and violating the TOU's/EULA's of most of the people whose content she has used in Sims or Lots, or edited in order to create new content. If you are not against paysites entirely this really isn't the place for you- really it isn't -

Sorry all didn't mean to push a button.  It just seemed less offensive to me and like I sad, I was thinking of something very specific that I had seen in passing that is not relevant, as it turns out.  You've made your point.  I don't disagree given what the situation actually is.  And I've been here for a wee bit of time now, and still feel it suits me. 

That's the sort of behavior that makes me lose all respect for a person.  Not that the going pay thing wouldn't also do that, in this case, but anyone who makes a big deal about leaving some place, going in a huff, etc, etc...I don't really respect that.  If you don't like a site, just stop going.  If you've contributed, it's really not nice to take your toys.  Leave a link to your new digs in your profile and your fans will follow you when they notice you've stopped updating.

The only time I really relax on these sort of views is in the case of a site like TSR or if the original Insim had stayed up after Walt's takeover.  If a site has had really nefarious business come to light, or the entire site changes from the original concept.  Not having gotten into a tiff with a moderator or anything like that--because taking your shit doesn't do anything but hurt the people who liked your stuff.  Doing it without a really really really good reason is just sucky.

Why would someone start up with pay items on a TS2 exclusive site now? There's still some die hards but the user base has obviously greatly dwindled.

Was it just greed combined with laziness since she already had the stuff made anyway and figured if even a few people were stupid enough to buy the stuff then it was worth a shot?

Quite possibly that last thing you said, Motoki, but also, she may well be setting it up for TS3 Sims and the like. I don't really think she'll be raking in the dough, though. The one thing of hers that I've seen used most is her tutorial on anti-pixelation. :P

I am not familiar with Sironasims or how long it has been a paysite but the first two premium downloads were posted by admin on 12th August 2009 yet the comments on it are from Oct/Nov 2008.

It's because those items used to be free/have been up on her site for a long time.

Thanks Miss bonbon,  I didn't realise she had done that, I thought she had just taken her stuff from other places and stuck it up for pay.  The way she has done it sucks big time. 

well i offered her free hosting on WNF way back when she was starting her site and using our site MySimSite for free help setting up her [then] free site.
At the time she decided on a different free host and I helped answer her questions when she did move to paid hosting.
I had told her she was always welcome to join the family, and that if she ever needed help, we were there for her.

I had no idea she had started charging for downloads, once our family is back up, we're going to have to remove our links to her. It's a shame that she decided to start charging for items, with us offering free hosting...especially since Sims3 is out and there are less people even downloading sims2 content, let alone paying for it. It's even weirder that shes charging for previously free items that have been available for ages.

My thoughts as well. She's had this stuff free for years (including the Dermalicious skintones), and now that Sims 3 is the new kid on the block, she charges for formerly-free Sims 2 content? This just doesn't make sense.

And now I read that ws-jessica offered her free hosting. What the ...?

I'm shocked. I have a lot of her stuff in my files, including many of her skintones (even though some of them have done some freaky genetic-related things with my Sims babies. Not game-crashing things. Just odd things.) i've chatted with her, and she seemed very nice and helpful.

My respect for her just plunged dramatically. She would be one of the last people I would suspect would do this.

How silly. Many people already have the pay stuff. It shouldn't be too hard to get most of them on the Booty.

P. S. Just noticed this on the Dermalicious skintone description:

"The “dermalicious” skintone is based on the accent skintone which was based on my samantha pauline edit which of course was based and created after permission on stefan’s samantha pauline skintone."

Errrr .... that was originally a free skintone on MTS2. His TOS are pretty liberal and don't mention paysites, but if she did use his skintone in any way, he really is entitled to a cut of the profits, don't cha think ... as is ANY free creator whose body shop or buy or build items she's used in any way on her "premium downloads". I thought I saw a few other free creators' influence in her pay items, such as Ephemera, Nymphy, AKiea-Guinea and Louis. I see that she has not given any creator ANY credit in her full Sim descriptions, though if you look around, you can see whose stuff she used (such as the pearl-white hair on the dark elf).

I wonder how the free-site creators she's "borrowed" from feel about having their ideas used for her pay stuff?

Typical paysite behavior ... leech off a free creator and then charge for your "creations".

You just reminded me of the funniest TOU I saw from a free creator sometime last year. Paraphrased a bit:

You can use my stuff where ever you like; paysite, freesite, I don't care.  Just give me credit and know that if you're putting it on a paysite it WILL end up in the booty and your karmic debt will go up.

I thought it was cute.

Can someone please tell me what´s really the point in starting a pay section, when all items ends up in the booty anyways? ???

I thought the point with having payitems was to get profits, ha ha ;).

With Sirona Sims - she only updates every four or five months so there really is not point because everyone already has anything from her site that they want anyways because they downloaded it when it was still free.

I think she updated recently with a sim. Supposedly it comes with a lot of free artist creations that specifically say "no paysites."  ::)

Yes but prior to that her most recent update was in March, and before that January- I would call that infrequent updating considering that if you look at most paysites they have new updates every two-three days at the most.

Oh yes, of course. I just thought you meant that she hasn't updated at all in a while. :P I bet now though, she will probably take care to update that section more often now. Has anyone tried contacting her yet? I know Nymphy at GOS tried already and didn't get a response.

I think Nymphy did not sure on anyone else.

Motoki, my guess is that she decided to leave MTS2 and create her own site for some reason, then realized she had made the crass logistical mistake of not seeing how the land lies - had she bothered to do a minimum of preparative research she would have known the interest on TS2 is currently dwildling and even popular sites are having trouble with meeting their server costs. Then, in a desperate attempt to salvage her little site she plastered a pretty "premium" section on it, added a Terms page covered in legalese and called it a day. I also do not believe this is going to result in drumming up any extra enthusiasm: has anyone even requested her pay stuff to the booty shopping list yet? I no longer download pre-made sims or lots, which seems to be the only thing she's currently charging for, but there's plenty of people who do.

Jessica, if she did exploit the helping hand you guys at the family extended to her so she could remain free, she's even worse than a pay creator who admits outright to wanting to charge for CC. Creators and site owners who see the free community only as a platform for gathering the popularity and the knowledge that they believe that will carry them to success once they go pay are second only to pay creators that rip off free creators in being the most despicable people in the community.

I cannot recognize the free CC that she used in her pay creations (my visual memory sucks xD), but in case I do see something I know that was created by someone who intended it to remain free I'll be writing to her about it. She'll probably ignore it, but oh well. At least she'll know she succeeded in alienating yet another old fan.

[/delurk]

I'll be honest, but I've not been so fond of her, ever since -right- after I made my first open underneath stairs, she had to make them and others - because 'zOMG' I made mine repository to Numenor's recolourable stairs.  How -dare- I?

And of course she got all sorts of praise for doing what I'd just done, but not in as tidy a file. :P

There's some poetic justice that now nothing she makes pay can be in any way uploaded to MTS. No skin, no nothin. ha

Soggy, if it helps, I never downloaded any of hers, just yours and HL's open underneath stairs because I liked the look of what you'd done.

*concurs with Paden* I've never even seen any of hers because I've never needed to look for them! Yours are perfect, Soggy - there are a good amount of recolors out there for Numenor's stairs, and being able to use them on yours means I never have to worry about not having the right color for open underneath stairs. Whatever would be the point of them not  being repository, anyway?

Well, now that she's pay, I can finally say: she calls a white skintone "normal", another skintone "exotic", and a third one "native". NOT OKAY. We pink people are not the "norm", people with another skintone are not "exotic" (hi my papers on the exoticized "other", let me show you them), and "native" to WHERE? She gives me the creeps.

Repository = win.  I went from 30,000 downloads to 20,000 when I discovered repository stuff.  Then I discovered Piggi's maxis recols and it was all for naught.  Jonesi's blackets and all the items slaved off of them are my only comfort.  Poor downloads folder.

What I'm more saddened by is that people over at GoS have tried contacting her and its as if she just doesn't care anymore as she's not replied or come out of her cave to say anything. If she wants people to purchase stuff from her, customer service is always the first thing to get right ;)

Which is precisely why I not only asked Numenor for permision, but was super pleased he wanted to see them and check my coding [he fixed them so they would actually -be- open underneath.  And I gave him full credit.

And see, that's the thing - I make stuff -I- like.  I -want- my stairs to match, and if I want wooden stairs [for example] why clutter up everything with twice as many recolours?  Doesn't make sense to me.

And back on subject, selling stuff like this doesn't make sense either.

Sounds more like she's feeling guilty for going pay.

Or just doesn't want to deal with the drama. 

The pay section has now been abolished. Don't be surprised if she begs for forgiveness out of the blue.  ::)

Don't be surprised if she gets told to suck it for doing the pay thing in the first place... At least by some.

I agree with Paden here- we are usually pretty forgiving of paysites or pay creators who go free depending on their behavior, but Cordophile has really royally fucked up by being free- and then going pay and making formerly free stuff pay, and then switching back with no explanation whatsoever. I would be more likely to forgive her if she had come right out and said she is having money troubles or whatever. But now not so much. It is not that she owes any of us an explanation, but providing an explanation would have been the polite thing to do. I don't trust her not to do this again, or to just up and close her site and move her work somewhere like TSR.

eh... I'd forgive her just for making it right.  I have lots of her shinies in my game and it would be a shame to lose her.

It is not that I don't like her content- I have some of her things to. It is more that I lack trust. and I don't trust her not to do it again. That would be true for any creator who starts off free, goes pay and then goes free again the next week. I like MsBarrows (currently at TSR) content to but if she were to suddenly start posting at MTS again tomorrow after more than 3 years on TSR as a pay creator- I would not trust her either and would seriously wonder what her motives were?

I honestly think that this was to focus attention on her site again- after all she does not update very frequently at all- before her update at the beginning of August her last update was in March and before that in December of last year. This means that people essentially lose interest because of infrequent updates (I run a finds site and honestly if you don't update your site even to leave a note saying " I'm Still alive, just busy" in three or four months I consider your site to be inactive or dead and won't bother going there- Hannah at Spring4Sims does the same thing- 3 months no posts of any kind- site goes to inactive/dead sites), and what better way to refocus attention on yourself than being free- going pay and then going back to free again.

Frankly, I don't like people that force me to pay attention to them, or their work like that . I would be like Johnny Deep doing all of the little independent films he did for literally nothing throughout the 1990's suddenly demanding 10 million dollars per film rather than waiting to have it offered to him on the merits of his work, and then going back to make little indie films where he got paid literally nothing. Makes me want to ignore you no matter how talented you are - Superstar Syndrome does not interest me. I don't have to forgive her or pay attention to her site just because she feels people weren't paying attention to her and she pulled a dumb assed stunt to get attention. Talented creators in the free community are not hard to find and there are plenty of them like Adele and Agustin who don't pull dumb shit like this to get attention - so no I don't forgive her, and I don't want anything to do with her site- because at this point much like TSR she is free today and pay tomorrow and I simply don't want to deal with it.

Why do you think she would start charging again after she asks forgiveness?  Give her a break,  at least she never uploaded her stuff to tsr.   :P

She hasn't asked for forgiveness- she hasn't posted anything anywhere about why she went pay, what is going on- She apparently was friends with Nymphy on GOS prior to this and would not even respond to a personal email from Nymphy. I doubt she is going to ask forgiveness at all from anyone. The only reason she went back to free - unless she offers up an explanation/excuse/apology indicating otherwise is that no one was going to pay to download content that they had already downloaded long ago for free at GOS or MTS. Since no apologies, excuses, or explanations have been offered I have doubts about her remaining free once she has enough new content  created to post( that people have not downloaded yet)  to create a new pay section

What the hell does it matter whether she "asks forgiveness" or not, or says nothing at all about it? The mission is to get rid of paysites, no? She went pay, for whatever reason, and now she's back to 100 percent free, and that's the only point that should matter in light of PMBD's goals. You get nowhere by beating up people who align with your cause. Keep your eyes on the prize, guyz.

I guess I was hoping that

leopoldstotch
Landlubber
Posts: 1

was her...

Uhm ... how, do you know?  ???

So what, in light of PMBD's goals, we should not be suspicious of someone who knows the community, yet still chose to go pay - for whatever the length of time? We should forgive, forget, and not bother with it? I refuse to pay for a ticket on that train of thought.

Corvidophile has been around long enough to know the issues, to know the fight, to decide where she stands; pay or free. Clearly after a move like that, she is not a person who 'aligns with our cause'. The prize? I needn't remind you that the 'prize' is the abolition of all paysites. It is not the flip-flopping of freesites to paysites and back again and who knows whether they'll be pay once more. She hasn't come out and said that she will continue to be free, and if she did, we'd still have every right not to trust her. As of now, not a single one of us can say with certainty what she will/won't do. But this is about what's been done already. And what has been done was very WTF-ish. I, for one, do not appreciate being poopooed for not sighing in relief and shrugging, saying "Ah, well, crisis averted!"

Sorry, I'm only a Simmer who downloads and slightly modifies content (blending skintones, modifying lipsticks, and so on). I am certainly no Corvidophile, but if I was her I wouldn't have pulled this stunt.  ;) Although, who knows, she might release an explanation at some point.

Not poopooing you, m'dear. Attack isn't my style. I'm just saying that IMO it doesn't matter why she went pay, what matters is that she went back to free and that's what people here want. What she will or won't do in the future is irrelevant. So tomorrow she goes pay again? So you boycott her and trash 'n slash her again. It apparently worked the first time. If that's the reason she went back to free, it's doubtful she'll try the donation file route again, because obviously she cares what's thought of her and said about her. If she went back to free for other reasons, what difference does it make? She's free again, that's the goal. No sighs of relief are necessary. There's no "crisis" that was averted. It's a freakin' game, for God's sake. Nobody's died. She saw the light. This is a good thing. Don't flog her for making a decision you wanted her to make.

I have to agree with Dusdeedawn and others on this one; for all the time she spent at GoS and the fight here at PMBD she still decided to go against everything GoS and PMBD stand for and started to charge for content, that might I may stress was once free for a good few years. Since this was discovered not once has she come out from hiding and explained her side to it all, but rather stays quiet as we all ponder what the fuck made her do it. Yes she's now free - but she shouldn't have gone pay in the first place.

My real only concern in all this is how this looks to potential "on the fence" type people. Last thing I would want would be a paysite owner considering going free, and seeing the backlash of it all, then deciding against it.

To be honest I'm really torn with Cord's moves. I cannot decide on whether or not I am angry about what she did. It's upsetting with what she did, making freely available items cost money. But part of me is happy that she went back free. I agree that it's hard to trust her afterwards, but we at least have to give her a shot. Even if it's a "slip up and go pay one or more time..." type of shot. We want to encourage paysites to go free. I'm just torn because I don't want her going free, and the distrust she caused in the members of PMBD, to turn anyone else off from considering becoming free.

I'm very leery of her actions. As Pes says "Do it once, and you show you have the capacity to do it. Do it again and then you have a habit." Or something like that. We can't ostracize her for something she hasn't done, BUT we can't say for certain that she won't do it again.

Personally, I will have to hear something about it to decide. If I hear nothing, then I will assume the worst.

I have a feeling she read too many negative posts, emails and comments about going pay and changed her mind about it. Even though she hasn't said a word about it anywhere, that doesn't mean she didn't read what's being said.
Personally, I could care less what her reasons were for going pay. No reason is good enough. If you need a bit of help paying your costs, add a donation button and explain why you did it. Don't just flip from free to pay without saying a damned thing.
THAT'S what gets my goat. No explanation whatsoever. Yes, an explanation was owed. She's been around long enough to know better than that. Any explanation given now would be pointless. Nobody will want to hear it.

It's a good thing that she went back to being free. It's a better thing that none of my money ended up in her pocket.

My guess is that she went back to being free because she wasn't raking in enough money to make being hated worthwhile.  How many people would pay for content that'd been free for years, for an old game, nonetheless, especially since her site wasn't even that well known? ::)  After all, she knew the community well enough that she had to know she'd be hated for going pay--she must have been getting more hatemail than subscriptions.

I don't know if PMBD has to choose to fall on one side of the fence or the other, but I'm going to stay somewhere in the middle: I'll just ignore her (I won't attack or promote her site) unless she goes pay again or makes a really, really convincing apology.  I was willing to give her a second chance after the MTS2 thing, but this makes it obvious that she's not concerned with being a respected member of the Sims community.  Since she's not doing anything malicious at the moment, I say we just ignore her.

Thing is, when a person learns so very much from the free community and then turns around and goes pay, that's a huge stab in the back to each and every person that helped, supported and encouraged her. Sorry, I've got no use for people that do that kind of crap so will more than likely avoid people that do that like the plague after I've spoken my mind about the shit they pull.

I've known Corvidophile from other sites, and she's always left a sour taste in my mouth. None of this surprises me one whit.

-- from Corvi here (http://www.sironasims.com/new-female-sims-fantasy-dolls-vampires-sims-3-downloads-coming.html).

I wonder what she thinks the definition of paysite is? Umm lets see- a site that offers exclusive content for moniezz either through charging a subscription fee, or asking for donations in return for " premium" content. Sorry Corvi if Holy Simoly, ATS, and XM Sims are all pay creators- so were you even if it was only temporary to test the waters before going back free. So don't go getting up on your little self righteous horse on us claiming you have " always been free" cause the 3 weeks you were pay still count- even if they weren't permanent. You note that formerly pay creators like Aikea Guinea and Gelydh have never ever claimed that they have always been free. Stop lying to yourself and us cause it won't regain you any of the respect you lost.

The only thing she realized is that nobody was willing to pay for content that had been previously free. She knew bloody well what she was doing when she went pay. It wasn't an accident. She knew what she was doing. Whatever. That quote (the link is no good already?) is full of funny.

Ah, well, that's that and that's done, then. She's gotten a good deal of (in the main, negative) attention over it, and all's well that ends well, - though I shouldn't go so far as to say that ended well. This is not something the community is likely to forget, what with both us and GoS conversing on the topic and neither site being the type to house ignorant or forgetful people. Now we can all go back to forgetting that the site even exists. Yay, yay, she's not pay, etcetera and so forth. *yawn* Bed time yet?