PMBD

OK, when I first registered here, I told myself that, for various reasons, I was only going to lurk. But...but...I read threads elsewhere about the pay/free debate and saw so many pay creators essentially whining, "I put time and effort into my creations, so why shouldn't I be paaaaaaaaaid?!" and many people completely condoning this attitude and...and...I must rant. I'm sorry. Ignore me, if you like. I'm sorry if something like this has already been said a zillion times, and I apologize in advance if this goes long, as it likely will. I just have to get this out of my system in a "friendly" environment where it won't cause a war because I don't really want to deal with a war right now. So, I preach to the choir instead. :) I even thought about burying this in an existing thread, but none of the current ones seemed relevant, and I didn't want to necropost.

Anyway...

I have two Great Overriding Passions in my life.  No, neither of these is The Sims 2, but issues with both of my passions, I think, relate directly to the paysite issue and the excuses for the existence of pay-for-content Sims sites.

Passion #1 is writing. Some of the writing I do is professional. Meaning, people hire and pay me (Well!) to write stuff for them. I've been hired to write, among other things, copy for print ads and brochures, copy for commercial websites, magazine articles, radio and television commercials, and, once, the narration for a television documentary. I've also written short fiction printed in anthologies for which I receive royalties. This is using my hard-earned craft for pay, and it's entirely legitimate. Either I'm the holder of the intellectual property or I've been hired by the holder of the intellectual property in order to write stuff that promotes their product. For this kind of writing, I expect to be paid. Absolutely.

I write other stuff, though. Derivative fiction. Otherwise known as fanfiction. I do this for fun. It is a hobby. It is a stress reliever. It sometimes reboots my writing muse when it has decided to give me a Screaming Blue Screen of Death, and thus it benefits the professional side of my writing. I put every bit as much effort into any fanfic that I write as I put into the stuff that I write for pay. In fact, sometimes I put more effort into the fan stuff simply because it is something that I'm doing for enjoyment rather than something that I'm doing solely because someone is paying me to do it and has given me a deadline. Do I expect payment for fan writings? Absolutely not. Because I'm aware of copyright law, I know that, in the eyes of the law, whatever I write as fanfic is not really mine to sell. It is, essentially, the property of whoever owns the intellectual property that I am...er, borrowing. :) I share it freely with other fans of the same property. Even back before the Internet made doing so very simple, I had stuff that I wrote printed at my expense, and I distributed it freely to anyone who wanted it.

So, in short, I don't understand this "I put in whole hours of effort, so I should be paid, dammit!" mentality that these pay creators seem to have. I can honestly say that I have never encountered this entitlement mentality in ANY fan environment that I've been involved in, and I've been involved in more than a few. Is this common in gaming circles? (Admittedly, I have never really been into video games at all; I blame my son for getting me into this one.) Hell, one fanfic novel I wrote took me literally years to write, off and on, and it was and continues to be very well-received in the fan community to which it applies. Yet despite all of the effort I put into it, I would never expect payment for it, even if it wasn't expressly illegal to receive payment for derivative fan works. I may have written the words, sure, but the backbone of it -- the characters, the milieu, the "props," etc -- is not mine at all. Without those things, the words I wrote are useless and devoid of meaning. Rather like how without the proprietary .package format, whatever a Sims creator might create is worthless in terms of in-game use. (At least, that's how I understand it.) So, I honestly do not understand how these pay creators sleep at night, especially when they're charging for, for example, simply recoloring meshes that they did not originally create or, worse, that Maxis created. To me, they seem to be the pirates, profiting (handsomely, likely) from something that isn't theirs to sell in the first place. You guys aren't pirates at all. (Maybe the fact that you call yourselves such is therefore irony? If so, I appreciate it. :) ) You are actually the anti-pirates, and I gladly and whole-heartedly join your ranks, even if this is the only thing I ever post.

Passion #2 in my life is music. I've been playing the cello since I was eight. As with writing, there are two types of playing that I do. One is occasionally playing with a locally-popular indie folky-rock band who write all their own music so they earn and keep all the money they take in from gigs and CDs and stuff. I get my share from any gigs I play with them. The other, though, is playing professional classical music. I play solo for hire for weddings and such. I play with a string quartet, also for hire. I play with a symphony orchestra, for (meager) pay. For said orchestra, I served as music librarian for a couple of years, so I am familiar with licensing fees. When I would buy a set of sheet music for the orchestra, the price included a (rather hefty) performance license fee. This is a fee paid to the publisher of the music as well as to the arranger and/or composer (if alive) or to his/her estate (if dead but their music/arrangement is still not in the public domain). Reason: These are the people who own the music. The orchestra (or quartet or soloist) is just borrowing it to play it for other people who may or may not be paying to listen. Even though the orchestra I play with rarely if ever turns a profit, we still have to pay these fees to the holder of the intellectual property. That's the law.

So, when I'm in classical playing mode, I expect to be paid, but I also know that either I or the group that I'm playing with is turning over a portion of that money taken in to the actual owner of the intellectual property. I could see charging for CC if there were official licensees of EA who paid fees to EA and then they recoup the expense, plus some profit, by selling high-quality for-pay CC. I'd be OK with that, even, and if I needed/wanted what they were offering, I would gladly pay for it if I couldn't make it myself. In fact, this is what I thought was the case with TSR, that they were officially linked to EA/Maxis as a licensee and thus were entitled to offer for-pay CC. Stupid me didn't do her research until I realized that there were many other sites charging and that they all didn't appear to be licensees. Duh.

Anyway, all around, I see absolutely no legal justification for charging for CC, no matter how much time and effort the creator put into it. It is legally wrong, but worse than that I believe it's morally wrong, which makes it reprehensible. Which, in turn, makes me very mad. And when I'm mad, I get...passive-aggressive. :)

Anyway, thank you to anyone who read this thing. And, again, sorry for taking up space. As a writer, I'm afraid that when I'm pissed about something, it comes out in writing that I subsequently and unfortunately feel compelled to release upon unsuspecting folks. :)

Wow.

This has been said before, but I'm glad you put this in a new thread.  You'll find that many of us feel the same way around here.  A lot of us do some creating abouts and we we wouldn't dream about asking for money.

Have some rum.

Okay - here's a question, in the interest of debate. Purely hypothetical, and yes, I know there are plenty of ways to host sites without pay content, but most of those sites eventually end up asking for donations, and, being poor myself, I can't possibly give to all the sites I'd like to and that I use regularly, though I do when I can. I imagine that's true for a lot of us. I think it's probably also true that some are more likely (rightly or wrongly) to shell out a couple of bucks for a specific item rather than for the site as a whole - perceived reward, as it were. Also, it seems like a nice gesture to offer something as a special 'thank you' to those who do donate.

What, therefore, is wrong with one or two small, cheap, but nicely made donator gifts on a site? I'm not talking about sites (and we know who they are) who offer crappy stuff for free and all the nice stuff is pay, let alone sites like T$R. The site I work with is free, and has absolutly no plans to change that, but it's something I personally have thought about - how to show a little extra appreciation for people who are willing to pitch in on the cost without being a money-grubbing scumbunny.

any thoughts? (yeah, like there wouldn't be  ;) )
z

With well-made content, you don't have to have "donators gifts."  Our reasoning is that if you have to give money for anything, it's a paysite.  (Some paysites do this, and we usually don't think they're evil, ex. Holy Simoly.  We do think that it's not needed.)

You can create things to celebrate reaching your bill and make these things available for everyone.  Wicked Nouk Family has an aspiration set every time they get enough money to pay the bill.

Ah - now that's a brilliant idea - solves the problem nicely. I noticed the aspiration sets there, but was too damn lazy to find out what they were for. Personally, I don't care for paysites, and as for T$R, well, let's just say I have seen the evil of their ways, once I finally started paying attention, that is. It just always seemed to me that there ought to be some extra way to say 'thanks' to the people who put out money to help support quality free sites. Wow. That was easy!

 ;D  That's great!  Glad to be of help.

That is not such a catchy title though.  :D


You can have a special download just for donations, but like WNF, it doesn't have to be exclusive.  It's the exclusivity that people are sometimes going for, I think - that they can have something exclusive, only if they pay for it.  Otherwise, they would see the bad quality of the donation files attested to here, the first time they paid, and stop.

Also, I think it should be also noted that some people donate to TSR (as attested in the quiz stouch) to keep it a place for all to upload - they are trying to do something for others - but I daresay those people are rare.

I also don't think you have to have filthy lucre changing hands to make a gift - I made gifts for my one year update, and my own birthday, and to thank a poster in my guestbook.  I'm sure people would like a "just because gift" - which is basically what the entire site is.

@Zillah: Honestly? I would say that if you can't afford to pay for a website, then you have no business opening one. Plain and simple. Sorry if that's hard-line, but that's how I feel. 

If you're a creator and want to share your stuff but can't afford your own site, then you have options, MTS2 being probably your best bet. Or Nouk's network of subsidized free sites. Having anyone pay for what you create for any reason is, IMO, wrong. Now, if you hold a donation drive and reach your goal and then you offer a new free set that you offer to everyone as a thank you for reaching your goal, then I don't see anything wrong with that. I believe Nouk does that. But to give the content as a "reward" and only to those who pay you? Nope. Not right. That's "pay me because I work so hard to maintain my siiiiiiiiiite and I'll close it if you don't paaaaaaay meeeeeee!" Bull, IMO. Public broadcasting, either radio or TV, will give you a reward for donating to them, but they're not giving away stuff that they really don't own. They give away stuff that they legitimately bought as promotional items. Totally different thing. (And kind of like the booty, now that I think of it...although you don't need to donate to get at the booty, of course.)

Edited, after rereading Zillah's initial post: Ugh, I think I kind of misunderstood what you were saying. Darn phone ringing in the middle of reading! I thought you were essentially asking, "What's wrong with paying a site's bandwidth bill for them?" as opposed to "How can we thank people who donated." Sorry about that. I'll leave what I originally posted to stave off that kind of whining, but I shouldn't have said that to you. I'm sorry.

@Redikolous: Thanks! Glad I haven't pissed anyone off...yet... ;) *guzzles rum*

I was actually just about to chip in with the public broadcasting bit, celligirl; you beat me to it.

Basically, you don't donate to PBS because you really want that totebag. You donate to PBS because they do good stuff. A donation implies a free will choice with no ill effects if you don't do it. You can still watch everything PBS puts on air without having donated; you are not locked out of certain programming purely because you didn't empty your wallet onto their desks. In that way, donation packs are silly. It's nice to want to thank the people who've donated, but offering exclusive content is retardulous. If you want to offer special privileges, maybe offer donators access to the site sans advertisements, or maybe they can download from a faster server (assuming your site is big/popular enough to warrant multiple servers). For smaller sites, maybe offer donators the ability to request content tailored specifically for them (which would later be posted on the site--for free). There are lots of ways to give donators small, appreciative gifts that don't include paid content.

Sometimes a website goes way beyond your expectations. I had one website in particular that lasted for 2 or 3 years before Topcities.com nuked it, and I never would have guessed that it would become the most popular website for that musical character on the entire web. They actually nuked it because it ended up using so much bandwidth due to the mass amount of visitors. Again, I never ever EVER expected something like that to happen.

The same thing goes for the Sim's community. For example, I'm pretty sure the infamous Nouk never expected to become one of the most (if not THE most) popular creator of hair in the community. It just happened.

Exactly Ruloi.

MTS2 doesn't have aspiration gifts, but you get a little heart under your name when you donate, and faster downloads.  Some people don't like that, but there's nothing illegal about it.

I understand that. I do. But if that happens, you have a choice to make. Free hosts only give you a certain amount of bandwidth per month, and it's usually very low as they're really only meant for hosting small personal sites. If you're notified that they're closing you due to bandwidth issues, you have a choice to make. You close, or you cough up money to keep your site going. This is a choice I had to make for a site of mine (not Sims, but a fan site for a very popular TV show.) I ended up finding a host whose lowest-price business hosting option offered unlimited bandwidth and unlimited storage. It was not expensive, and I was willing to pay for it because I know that people like the site. So, I coughed up the money and I didn't ask anyone for help.

That's not in everyone's budget, I know. Me personally, I would close my hypothetical Sims site that I could no longer afford and move the content to MTS2, although I wouldn't dictate that that's what anyone else MUST do; it would just be the right choice for me, is all. With Sims sites, it seems the popular thing is to do the donation set thing, which I don't like. I like the way Nouk does it much better, if one must ask for donations at all.

It's a great system, really. And people are usually willing to donate because The Wicked Nouk Family creates great content.

Indeed, they do. :)

I would offer donation sets or even (big gasp) pay files IF:

1. I had designed The SIms
2. I designed the program that allows us to re-color and re-mesh
3. I were the only game in town.

Without having done the above, it's out of the question.

Celigirl, have some cookies as well...rum is no good without the cookies.


And above all...my little $120 a year for MY HOBBY is pretty darned cheap anyway. If ever I were so famous/infamous that I needed more to support my site, then I am sure there would be someone to help for the love of the game, not for a special donation pack. Aspiration, not bribery, is best.

I have always compared The Sims 2 CC to fanfiction as well. Writing is a hobby and I enjoy creating new stories or realities for characters that are not my own making, but never in a million years would I ever expect anyone to pay me for writing fanfiction. I also compare those writers who demand a certain amount of reviews before they further post a chapter or whatever to paysites. Drives me up the wall since I firmly believe that people should write (fanfiction or not) because they enjoy it, not for the gushing "OMG I luv it! Update so0n!" reviews or strictly for the money. How can you force yourself to write/create something you don't have any passion for? CC isn't very much different. The tools and talent may be different, but the concept is still the same.

Hey Celligirl

We were able to cover our hosting first time round ourself.. but second time, our owner had different circumstances so the staff gave what they could and then these guys around here helped out and kept us afloat. But we don't hold our content hostage, and we won't.. but sometimes you can't always find every single cent of your hosting. Kathy at Insim certainly can't, their hosting is several hundred dollars a month. (I think they might have mentioned they're having some trouble right now)

Kath

I really enjoyed reading your "rant", celligirl.  Excellent points.

*Clap!*

Nice first post, Celligirl! The whole CC=fanfic is a good comparison, and one I've run into a few times. Makes sense to me.

Edited to remove reference to golfclap. Apparently some of us have been using the term incorrectly...? Not really sure, but I don't want to sound sarcastic just in case.  ;D

@LadyDea: Hee hee. And usually the people who are begging for reviews are the ones who can't write for piss to begin with, so I figure I'm doing the fan community a service by not reviewing in order for them to keep their grimy fingers away from their keyboard. :)

OK, OK, so I realize that the people who do this are generally 13-year-old attention whores who just need to do some growing up and get moar edumacation, but still...

@Saraswati: You know, there are more and more hosts out there that are offering unlimited bandwidth these days, as the cost has gone down as the Internet has blossomed that I don't understand why the big bandwidth-eating sites don't just pull up stakes and change hosts. I guess that's harder to do if you're forum-based, as many of them are, but if you're really desperate, you just back up the content you want to save and move elsewhere. I mean, my host offers a package that, for a little less than $20/month, you get unlimited bandwidth and unlimited file storage and I believe you get forum software with that, too. IIRC, the only stipulation is that you have to prepay for at least 2 years of hosting, so you have to cough up $500.00 up front. But if the big sites are paying hundreds of dollars for one MONTH of hosting, then...?

I don't know. Maybe I don't know enough about this hosting stuff. I'm certainly not an expert about it. But to me if your host wants to charge you hundreds of dollars a month and there are cheaper options out there and they're not willing to negotiate with you, then you say buh-bye to your host. Or at least I personally would do that before I would ask my visitors/members for money.

Ditto :D I don't review on purpose for those stories. I came across one fanfic in particular that was well written (a few by the same author, actually with the same problem), but the writer kept going about how "nobody was reviewing" and "wah wah I'm not motivated to further update because no one is bowing to my awesomeness so I'm taking my story down and THEN you'll be sorry ". Not in so many words, but the general idea. Puts me off completely. Be gone shameless review-whores!

Hey Celligirl

What it is.. is that it depends on the capacity of the server.. not all servers are equal. If you get a big site that hosts their files on one server then if it gets lots of demands at one time, then that site slows to an unmanageable crawl for everyone, pages start to crash and won't load, which causes a great deal of stress.. Tiggerypum explained this to me. MTS for one is on something like six or seven servers dotted around the world. In order for them to be properly equipped and keep things moving at a reasonable speed, they need a lot more hosting than a 20 dollar a month plan provides. And most of us don't mind helping because if we don't help sites like MTS out that don't hold content hostage, you end up with TSR type sites where everybody pays.

Does that explain it a bit?

Saraswati

It does, thanks. :) Like I said, not an expert. And, in fact, my host does say that if your site is causing trouble for others, then you'll have to move up from shared hosting to a dedicated server which is, yes, $200 a month. I've never hit that ceiling yet, though, and there have been months where my one site has hit about 1.5TB of bandwidth. I imagine some of the large Sims sites probably go well over that mark, though.

I guess in my original post, I was thinking more about the smaller sites.  I've visited some that didn't have a huge amount of content available and who couldn't possibly be using a ton of bandwidth unless people were mercilessly leeching from them for some reason, yet they were saying something along the lines of "OMG! Bandwidth bill! Donate to meeeeeeee and I'll give you this seeeeeeeet!" Sorry, not buying it. :) I've got tons of multimedia on my main site, much larger files than a standard Sims download, and they are visited and viewed often. I can't see how offering a few hundred Sims downloads (Like I said, I'm talking about smaller sites here) could result in having a huge bandwidth bill when my multimedia-heavy site is only using on average about 600GB a month. Unless you're using a free host, of course, in which case...time to move! :) Cough up your six bucks a month for a non-free host who'll give you at least several hundred GB a month for your five or six bucks.

Now...time to grocery shop. Yay. :\

Shuffles feet.... I do....  I LIKE the totebags.  Good for keeping knitting etc.......  LOL   :-\

Please take that first post and send it as an email to every paysite owner. Seriously. That is made of win.

I loved that. Send it to all the paysite owners and all the sheeples that go to them.

Its probably been said, but Zillah, Parsimonious whenever they get a donation they may sometimes make an item that that person requests (if it seems like a good idea) and make it availible to everyone. The Wicked Nouk Family gives out those sets for everyone when they make their donations, and I think that those are good systems to go by.

Celligirl, your examples of copyright and derivative objects in your first post make the clearest explanation I've read.

Thanks for joining us. :)

Looking at the various comments in this thread...

Filesizes for most fanfic (and other text) are nothing compared to sim download files, and yes, that does make a difference in hosting issues.

Also fanfic is a heck of a lot easier to deliver, you don't need to explain to people how to read it  (whereas in the sim community people expect support when they can't figure out how to put the stuff in their game).  I am sure with fanfic you can also get rude people and hate mail and such.

'Unlimited' hosting is not.  No matter what they claim, and they always have limits, sites that outgrow their 'unlimited' hosting find that pages cease to load correctly, downloads fail, etc.  Most of those sites plan to host -your site- and many others all on one server, assuming none of them actually need the whole server. 

MTS2 for instance, has a farm of servers, I don't have it memorized, but it's something like 7-9 servers, and at one point our monthly bills were around 2k...  Now - MTS2 has managed to keep the content free, but has had to sometimes run fund drives in order to keep things going (and we've had mixed results with ad services to generate revenue).  Even with that, we've had periods when people were having problems getting to the site or downloading.

I'm involved with a facebook app - lil greenpatch - which quite outgrew it's hosting at AbigcompanyIwontname.  Pages stopped loading, the database overloaded, coding changes did not help, and they simply said, sorry, no, this is all we can do for you.  GP had to locate hosting at a service designed for high volume sites.  With 500,000 daily users, even -without- large download files, the other company's system (and they did add servers) was just not able to handle it.

Bigger sites also often end up using databases (forums use a database too). Often forum software is not optimized for high volume - so they you need a great programmer (like Delphy) or you might need to hire a consultant to come in to help fix things... or buy more servers and hope that helps enough.

And historically - why most small sites offered 'donation gifts' is because (and I've been in this community since sims 1) -- because shockingly enough, most people were not motivated to even throw $5 at a site they liked if they didn't get something extra back. 

There are two ways to look at the sims downloads

1) as a consumer - who bought the product and is now 'shopping around' online grabbing more things for it.  The people who come at it as a consumer will gladly take things that are free and -not- pay, even if the site owner doesn't want to spend hundreds a month out of their own pocket funding this 'hobby' of theirs.  (and frankly for how some of these 'free' customers behave - hassling those who offer their work free - sometimes yes, it is a wonder that more people don't quit.)   At any rate, those coming at it from a 'consumer' point of view aren't going to 'donate' when they already got the stuff for free, but might 'buy' a donation gift.

2) as a member of a community - someone who sees themselves as a member of the community, even if they never create, and only download - those people might realize that there's more involved and that just because someone has talent and time, that doesn't mean they can afford to pay for hosting once it's gotten beyond the $10-$20 a month level.  Those people might donate from time to time to their favorite sites without having to be bribed with 'thank you' gifts.

Anyway - the sims world is NOT a community really.  It's a bunch of people with a common interest, and while some of the folks congregate on boards and form communities, it's not all one big happy family... There's as many people hating on each other and criticizing for one thing or another as there are any that are supportive... if not more.   But it is people who will behave as a community and be supportive of the others in it that make 'free' sites possible... because once a site becomes popular, hosting becomes difficult.

----

Anyway, my 2c, with experience running big sites (and I remember when 10k visitors a day made us one of the top 10 sites on the web, lol).  There's a lot more involved that people who haven't been involved with a very large site don't realize.

PS - I've seen more responses since I wrote this - and indeed for a little 1 creator site that -hasn't- hit it big, they should just treat it like the hobby that it is, and not expect that people need to pitch in to pay for the $10-$20 a month of hosting. 

The comparison is based more on the fact that the process is creative, and utilizes the creations of someone else. I know nothing about hosting, so I have to assume that you are right (I mean, you have a bit of experience ;) ), but I don't think that was what the comparison was initially built on. It's a good point, though.


Hey, not everyone in my neighborhood agrees with one another, either. Political issues, for interest, regularly divide cities and states, even nations. That doesn't mean that we aren't all part of the same community; the larger community contains many smaller ones, but that doesn't make the larger one invalid. What makes Simmers members of a community is that we have this shared interest of which you speak, and are forced to deal with many of the same issues, some of which are positive and some of which are not. I don't think disagreements within a community negate its existence.

Yes, that was what I meant. There is no way a fanfiction (unless is was novel length and even then that's pushing it) can compare filesize wise (try saying that three times fast!). When I compare CC to fanfiction, I am comparing the borrowing of a concept created by someone else and using that concept. Respecting that the back-story, plot, characters, etc., are not your own and that should be acknowledged by not demanding payment.

I'm not very good at explaining, which is why I stay out of debates.  :-\

I find it very awesome that they are lots of people around the world willing to part with their extra change so the people with no extra change can access the same stuff. It is LIBERATING, it is just wonderful. It shows the true love of the game.
You guys want to know something funny? I don't know wether Raon from Raonsims has ever said why she has pay files on her site, but it sure as hell it's not because of bandwidth issues, or is it?
I was there about 3 days ago because I just wanted to have a look at her male hairstyles (I was desperate, I just couldn't find the variety I needed and I stupidly thought, maybe she uploaded some new nice ones?) and I couldn't connect! It kept saying that the website has reached its maximum connection of users. It took me about 10 tries, before I could connect and browse. Odd isn't it?
And then there is Holy Simoly, who I can't connect to at all from work, and from home it says that I am unauthorised to view the site. Very strange indeed, I wonder what happened there?

Bandwidth is a BIG issue for the Sims community.

I've had the same issue with Raon a few times, and I noticed Holy Simoly having the same issue earlier today. Hmmm...

@Tiggerypum: Er, I think we have some confusion here vis a vis fanfic and bandwidth issues. :) My original post equated creating CC for The Sims and writing fanfiction. To me, they are analogous because when you're indulging in either of them you're playing in someone else's sandbox, using someone else's property. In fanfic's case, you're borrowing a fictional universe that is proprietary to someone else. In CC's case, you're modeling an object or modifying such a model and ultimately saving that creation in a file format that, as I understand it, is proprietary to EA so that it can be used in-game. In both cases, what you create, in the eyes of the law of at least the US, does not really belong to you and so is not legally yours to sell. Yet, pay content creators sell stuff all the time without so much as paying a license fee to EA, even though I often see them basing their "creations" on EA's very own meshes. This pisses me off, so I ranted.

We got to talking about bandwidth because I said early in the thread that I believe that, in general, one shouldn't have a website if one can't afford to pay for it. Things were elaborated from there and kind of veered off in different directions. In my first post about that particular issue, I should have been more clear and said that I was speaking more of a small site consisting of one person's creations that, so far as my knowledge of the issue extends, wouldn't seem to require a lot of bandwidth, at least not by today's standards. I'm talking about a site of no more than, say, 50-100 available downloads. I wasn't really thinking about the biggies like MTS2, InSim, or even, God "bless" them, TSR. But as I said, I didn't make that as clear as I should have made it.

As for bandwidth... I'm fully aware that text files aren't large, of course, but we weren't talking about text files in a bandwidth-usage context. As I said a bit up in the thread, one of the sites that I run is multimedia-heavy. It includes a large WAV-format sound archive, lots of video clips, a significant number of large-file-size animations, a huge art and screen capture/photo archive, a large multiuser database of fanfic, a well-used forum, etc., etc., etc. Oh, and lots of people leech bandwidth via hotlinking to it, as well, which is something that I'd do more about if I had the time...which I unfortunately don't. :( In any case, it is a popular site, I'm both happy and somewhat dismayed to say, and receives a lot of traffic, although I haven't really been keeping track of pageviews and such. I do keep an eye on bandwidth, though, and over the last year or so, it has pulled an average of I'd say about 600GB of bandwidth a month and has on four or five occasions spiked at about 1.5TB in a month. It is hosted on shared hosting with a host who offers unlimited bandwidth, though as I noted above there is fine print in their TOS that says that if your site causes difficulty to other people's sites (i.e. slow-downs, denials of service, etc.), you'll be asked to go to a dedicated server, which is much more expensive, of course. As of yet, I have had no such warnings from my host, even with the fairly large bandwidth spikes the site experienced last summer, and I've been hosted with them for several years now. So either there aren't a lot of folks sharing the server I'm on, in which case I'm just lucky, or they truly do give you lots of bandwidth for not a whole lot of money. I honestly don't know which it is or if there's another explanation. As I said, I'm not an expert on the issue. I just like to muck about with my site, is all. :)

50-100 items with thumbnail pictures and a decent layout is still a good bit if you become really popular and people are constantly downloading. (Don't worry, I understand your original point, too. ^_~)

celligirl I think the trouble is, bandwidth is bandwidth.. Weirdly it's usually more of a real issue for the free sites, which is partially what Tig was trying to explain.  Most of the newer paysites are more overtly greedy than the older paysites and they stopped using this as an excuse a llittle while back.. now they just go on about wanting moniez like it's their right..

I have read everything you wrote cellgirl. And tried to understand, my language is not english. But i have been thinking the same as you, is it right
that other people pay for you're hobby?   It looks like you know what you are talking about.
If i were to put up a site for people to download - i would check out different solutions before i started publishing free downloads of content i might have made. I do not mind that MTS or Nouks society need help. They have really done much to avoid paysites. Since then it's been a lot of developement. Why can't single paysites check out solutions?
Iit's not that expensive to rent decent servers: https://dreamhost.com/hosting.html



And saraswati, to me it looks like you are not reading what cellgirl is typing. While she is typing about unlimited bandwidth, you are still talking about how hard it is for free sites to run a website because of bandwidth problems? To claim donations to run a fansite makes me suspicious. But  it's important to keep MTS2 and Nouks out of this discussion. They are already established, for a long time ago, and i would not even think of asking such great communities to move. So please - keep them out. They only need help now and then.  No one here want to loose MTS2 or Nouk.  They've done a marevellous job. And cellgirl did explain that early in her post.

I see there wiill be more and more difficult to use excuses and blame it on the bandwidth, since the solutions for this is right in front of your nose on
the internet. Peggy like to blame her donationsets on the bandwidth, and we've always been laughing of this. Pescado write about this in the frontpage of PMBD.  The URL i gave out is just an example how cheap it is to host a huge website with heavy downloads. My cousin is also having big files, like film, videos, but he do not claim donations for any of this, everything he makes, is his own work.  And he is an expert.  If a person do not want to do some research before starting a freesite, i think it's lazyness. Too many are ordering a domain, and do not think about the consequenses. I would be rather embarrased to ask for donations to a sims 2 site, cause i
can't handle my own bills. (again, look at dreamhost.com ). This server is in USA, and i am sure there are similar solutions in Europe. I am far from an expert on this area,
but i do know experts.

I know my language sounds harsh, but that's the only way i can type english, and people will misunderstand me as usual. But that was my 2 cent.

Essentially, this is how I feel. Yes, I understand that you can innocently make a site where you want to share a few things that you made that becomes more popular than you could possibly have imagined. Suddenly, you're getting huge bills from your host or notifications that they're going to close you because you're sucking up all of their bandwidth, etc. etc. You don't really want to close your site because you don't want to disappoint people and, let's face it, it's ego-stroking when you become "famous." :)  I truly do understand all of that.

But to me, it's then that you have a choice to make. You close, you cough up money, you find a different solution, or you ask your visitors for money. For me personally, the very last option for my single-creator site where I'm sharing only stuff that I created (Meaning, I'm not talking about MTS2 here. :) ) would be to ask other people for money. My first course of action would be to search for a different host who might better suit my needs. My second choice would be paying myself, even if it meant buying a server myself. If that failed...Well, I'd close, frankly. I would not ask other people to support my hobby. But that's just me. :)

Celligirl, I just have to say great first posts! I wish I'd been able to comment yesterday; I read your original post right before heading off to work and didn't have time. I think the comparison to fanfic is incredibly apt, as is your point about expecting other people to fund your hobby. I don't know anyone who charges people to, for example, come downstairs and look at their model train set, and charging for custom content is pretty anomalous in the gaming community from what I understand.

I figured I'd throw out another example, since a few people seem stuck on the 'writing/hosting fanfic doesn't cost a lot' thing. ;)

I knit. Boring and 'grandma' aside, this is a hobby which can be extremely expensive. For example, I decided last year that I wanted to make this sweater (http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/781/roguesideviewwp6.gif). I paid $6.00 for the pattern (pretty reasonable) and approximately $120 for the yarn (again, pretty reasonable for a sweater's worth of decent wool). I spend many, many hours working it up, and at the end of it all, I can't sell it. Not even to recoup the cost of materials or to raise funds for starving orphans. Why? Because someone else owns the copyright to the pattern. Only she is allowed to sell sweaters made from the pattern. The only exception would be if I had express permission from her to sell it. To me that's not much different from Sims CC creators trying to sell the stuff they make.

That said, I have no problem with people asking for donations as long as they're not holding content hostage until they receive money. I'll happily donate to free sites, especially ones that provide hosting for other people's sites/creations. I do realize that sites like MTS2 and WNF use far more bandwidth than any 'cheap' host can accommodate, and I understand how terrifying it must be for the owner of an independent site to receive an email from their host telling them to cough up more money or close down. I don't think asking for some help in these situations is a bad thing at all. But regardless of how much your hosting costs, or how many unexpected bills have suddenly come up, or whatever the case may be, it's never okay to sell Sims 2 content just like it wouldn't be okay for me to sell that sweater because I don't have enough money for more yarn.

And I'm going to stop preaching to the choir now.

Saraswati was definitely reading what other people were typing, and I don't see what she said that was inaccurate. She is simply being realistic, and speaking of one of the several tangential issues that stemmed from the OP. Celligirl spoke of the responsibility for paying for one's own site, and several others discussed how that is not always possible if a site grows larger and faster than was expected. Read Tiggerypum's post. The truth is, sites with more than a few downloads, if they are popular, can easily have bandwidth issues. That doesn't give sites a right to charge for content, of course, but it's not impossible. Bandwidth problems can be an issue. When Celligirl originally stated that you shouldn't bother running a site if you can't afford it, even she was acknowledging that there is an inherent cost in running a site, and she opened the discussion up herself. Some people chose to discuss that element of her discussion rather than the whole "creative process" aspect. That doesn't mean that they weren't reading.

Angel makes a great point. I have two friends who crochet, and really nice things--big bags, sweaters, large plush dolls--cost them an arm and a leg. But they can't sell any of their great scarves or hats to make some extra cash because of the copyright issue. However, to me, that's also very different from CC: technically speaking, you don't have to pay for the materials to make CC; I don't think anybody buys the game or a new computer just to make CC.

My #1 passion is also writing. I have put more blood, sweat, effort, tears, agony, and so on into single stories than some of these shmooos have put into their entire paysites, and I don't expect a dime. Even if I did, I would be right in doing so because my work is A. good and B. MINE. Every. Single. Word. Is. MINE. And I can prove it, fucker. It's totally a labor of love, not a labor of $$$.

I completely understand the fanfic/CC analogy. I have to disclaim up to my eyebrows when I post fanfic. If I were to try to charge money for it, I would be in serious legal trouble. Hell, some of us get in serious legal trouble for writing the stuff to begin with. Meanwhile, EA has pretty much given paysites carte blanche to abuse their copyright for their own nefarious means. To me, this goes beyond bandwidth/server/hosting costs and right into the territory of ownership; that, to me, is the core of it all. In the case of both fanfic and CC, you're making something that isn't even yours to begin with, so you have no right to sell it. In fact, you should be grateful that you aren't getting a cease and desist just for doing what you do. Me? I am happy with that. I don't need a dime, unless somebody decides to send one my way of their own free will. I save the money-making for what actually is mine.

Well, Kragey, the argument would be that the bandwidth used to present the CC would be the incurred costs in creating it. Not that I'm ok with that argument, but that would be the parallel.

And wow, I had no idea that you couldn't sell knitted things made from particular patterns. That's kind of funny. I payed for a handmade Slytherin House scarf a few years ago, and I love it; it wasn't technically in violation of any copyrights because there is no crest on it, making it just a striped silver and hunter green scarf (which I seriously doubt can be copyrighted). I felt that it was OK to pay her because she was a very nice person, and she repeatedly sent yarn and knitting samples across the country so I could properly choose the colors/textures/wool contents. I payed her for her time and effort, not the product, even though the final product is beautiful and well-made. The difference between this woman and CC creators is that she wasn't breaking copyright law, or charging for something she's not allowed to charge for; If I wanted a crest on the scarf, I would have to add it after I already owned it. I'm sure if paysite owners could find a way to get around the issue this way, they'd throw a party.  :D

And Sinthe, you got it darlin'! ;)

Well, if she was going to get in trouble for the scarf, it would come from WB or J. K. Rowling, and I'm pretty sure you're correct in assuming that you can't copyright green and silver stripes.
Knitting, and I assume crochet and sewing, copyright rules are actually kind of complicated. You can't copyright a stitch pattern for a cable or certain texture, for example, because there are only so many things you can do with two sticks and a piece of string and most of these things were first 'invented' when our great-grandmothers were children, if not earlier. But you can copyright how the pattern is incorporated into a larger work, and even how that stitch pattern is written down. Which means I can't photocopy a page out of a stitch pattern book and include it with my pattern for a hat. I could go on, but we're not here to talk knitting! :P

And while bandwidth isn't an inherent part of creating CC, sharing these creations is what makes this hobby fun for a lot of people. And in that light I think that comparison is valid. (Besides which, the amount of money spent is really similar.)

I know what I've learnt from this thread - I wish falln_angel would make me a jumper.  :D

Okay. That'll be a $200.... donation. ;D

This is totally unrelated to the rant (which was a good one by the way, occasionally it's good to be reminded of why we do what we do), but I've seen people using this to praise something more than once lately, and it bugs me because a "golf clap" is actually a way of showing false praise for something. A bit like saying. "WOW NICE WORK" with heavy sarcasm to someone when they mess up.

"A "golfclap", often quoted in between two asterices(*), has the definition of being an indicator of extreme sarcasm and/or false praise towards what another person has said."

There, got that off my chest. Carry on!

Cellgirl, It's not just you, i agree also. Btw, While you were typing i found a similar solution in the country i live in, with more than enough bandwidth. One could choose where to have the server- in any european country, or in USA. I think i would choose a separate PC, a stand alone server, while working on my main computer. Not that i create CC, i have no time for it - but i think it's very fun, i have tried and if i spent more time, i can see it's not very difficult either.  I have always made a lot of effort into my hobbies, which i am sure everyone does. Maybe there is a problem for some creators of free CC to understand all this technology on internet, where to find hosting to decent prices, to make a system out of it. With several subdomains one can take backups of older files and put there with links, and one can be able to create new stuff all the time. I see that Peggy - that greedy paysiteowner already know this, she has always used the bandwidth as an excuse, while she probably do not pay much for her domain at all. And TSR? I don't know if they use the bandwidth as an excuse for people to pay for their items, probably not. Some paysiteowners simply do not care, they just want the monee!

I do not blame single siteowners of free CC, i do understand that they can get in troubble, simply cause they choosed wrong host, and because they do not always understand all this technology, while some does and do not ask for paypal help.  It has been too common to ask for help to stay free,  like i should ask you or someone else to help me with my website when i get into difficulties. This must not be understood as any attack on anyone,
it's just a personal opinon i have. And i keep MTS2 separate from this, as i do with Nouks family. They have after all established themself for a long
time ago, and are helping tons of other creators to upload their stuff so we can download what we want. A decent alternative to Peggy, Rose, TSR and other greedy paysite owners.

I am donating to MTS2 every month actually. While i would not mind donating to Nouks family when they need it. It's the single sites i
would like to see act different, i feel a pressure everytime i see a single site with a paypal button, or asking for help,  and if i do not donate to help them out, i feel guilty to even download some of their stuff. As a player, i would go broke if i should help out everyone who creates free stuff. At the same time, i feel that i am paying for someones hobby, even if they are sharing it with me. I think sims 2 fans are creating so much CC, it's like a jungle - i see it everywhere, and they must continue of course, for the fun of it, but i would love to continue seeing single sites without paypal buttons or asking for money.

To be honest, i do not even dare to reveal how much money i have spent special to rip off paysites, i have also helped some single sites, (guilt feeling) -and i have donated to Insim as well, but stopped when BBB started to act like an ass, and i've donated to S2C.  We, as players get an enourmous pressure on us, it's not excatly cheep (cheap?) to buy a game, which i have done with all my EP's except FT. I know i  do this voluntary, absolutely, but my priority has been trying to rip off paysites, that is why i am here. But now, i do not really need anyone else than the booty if i want something for my game,  i use MTS2 often, and i love Nouks hair :) I also have some few favorite sites in scandinavien, they do not ask for money, even if they have a lot of traffic and many downloaders. But like i said, it's just my opinon that people who start up a free site, should try to find a decent host they can afford.

*wow,  when i post this already 9 other have posted before, i use a long time to make myself understandable*

Happily - that's a nice jumper and I'm very lazy.  :D  My mother used to get people to pay for the wool - the jumper - she didn't sell. She didn't charge for her time either, but my mother was a very nice doormat.  8)

See...I'd seen it before used in another way. Urban Dictionary is probably right, but they have been known to miss additional definitions too. ;) I thought it was meant to be quiet, polite, unexcited clapping, the way you do when you are on a golf course. My bad.

The thing is, when we talk about bandwidth and paying for it, we need to look at who it's an issue for and who has actually had issues with dealing with it, or even mentions it. And that's not paysites currently. They stopped using bandwidth as an excuse a year ago. Now they just act like it's their right as a general rule.

The trouble you get is while you throw around the 600gig bandwidth, the truth is you can have sims sites that don't get anywhere near that and can still have their hosts slap them.. And this is an issue in particular for Sims sites. I had a friend on another popular free site yesterday telling me they hadn't gotten anywhere near their limit, but their host had still pulled down access to their forum because they'd gone over 1 percent server usage for that server and were affecting other sites. The honest truth is, you pay for five bucks hosting, you get five bucks. The fanfic analogy doesn't relate in most cases because the files in most cases would not be as large, and would not be being drawn in the same pattern. The point I am just trying to make is that this is a complex issue and it is not as simple a case as "find the cheapest host"...

That's true, but the fanfic analogy, although it does relate to Sims stuff, simply doesn't extend to this part of the issue; it's a good analogy, but not a full-fledged catch-all for all Sims CC issues. I think some of us might be blending Celligirl's points together. She wasn't comparing the cost of a fanfic site to that of a Sims site, but the process. They were two entirely different issues being discussed. Fanfic = creative product using another person's ideas, like Sims files, which makes them inapplicable for sale. That was entirely separate from the bandwidth issue, although she discussed both topics, and pointed out that site owners need to take responsibility for their own costs rather than expecting others to do it for them. I don't entirely agree with that last point, because there are plenty of free sites that have grown to large for their owners to pay for on their own, and that shouldn't mean that they have to shut down or live in a cardboard box in order to afford the site.

And you're completely right, most paysites don't even bother with the bandwidth excuse anymore, because it's not usually applicable, although it can be a fairly complex matter.

oh gawd, it's not even a question that they don't have the right to charge and they shouldn't be using it as an excuse if they do... ;) And they don't have the intellectual property rights to their files.. This conversation is that it's wandering from the practical to the theoretical and back again, and I'm a practical girl.. I'm only concerned with how it works and who I've seen struggling with these issues the most.

Absolutely. You can't expect people to pay for your bandwidth if you're selling child porn on the internet, either, because you have no right to sell child porn in the first place (not that payfiles are as despicable as kiddie porn, but you know what I mean). I was just defending the use of the fanfic analogy, because it seems like people are attempting to extend that analogy across more CC issues than Celligirl was originally attempting to describe. ;)

Gah, I'm spending a whole lot more time on this topic than I intended.

*chuckling* Me too luv.. And I originally only piped in more because I've seen people I like and respect- WS, MTS and Insim, all suffer from these issues. And because I knew it wasn't that simple because Tig explained it to me, my original intent in posting was just to explain to Celligirl where it can get complex... This isn't an issue for us right now, our donation button is down now, and we won't have to worry about it for the next three years.

(third edit, because it's 3 am and my leg is in a lot of pain) I 100 percent agree with this discussion if it's a question of do they have a right to charge and use bandwidth as an excuse? no. Do they have the intellectual property rights to their highly deriviative content? no.

This has all been very interesting - lots to take in. Guess I won't be setting up a pay sweater (jumper) site any time soon  ;D I never knew that about fiber arts patterns. Learn something new every day. And anyway, I knit socks. Maybe if the site I'm on has to resort to begging, we can post a big sign - "will knit socks for bandwidth" lol
z

*laughing* my foot is killing me.. thank you, I needed that..

Well, from what I've seen, many people use Photoshop or Paint Shop Pro to do recoloring. The former is not a cheap program no matter your budget, assuming that a person acquires the program legally. And depending upon your financial situation, the latter might not be considered cheap, either, although it's significantly less expensive than Photoshop. Granted, they might not have bought one of these programs just for CC creation purposes...but then again, they might have done exactly that. I really have no idea how meshes are created, but I would assume that it requires some type of software that costs money, as well. So, there are tools involved beyond the game or a computer. Just like Angel has to buy patterns and yarns and needles and markers and stitch counters and such. (I knit, too! Yay for knitters. I'm a sock person, like Zillah. I love to knit while zoning out in front of a TV. It's a lovely practical hobby, to boot. Unlike certain games. *cough, cough*) True, computer programs aren't consumable in that you don't have to buy them over and over, but they are still outlays of money. Photoshop, in particular. :)

@Luna: You do a great job with making yourself understandable, no worries. :)

I do think a lack of technical knowledge plays into this. It's so easy to start up a site, especially if you use templates so that you don't even have to know HTML. You can certainly create a site without understanding anything about things like bandwidth. And it's not just a lack of knowledge of the technology behind hosting, either. I'd be willing to bet that there's also a lack of knowledge about things that can be done to make a site "leaner and meaner" in terms of using less space and bandwidth. I mean, practically everything I know about this stuff, I learned from making mistakes. For instance, when I first started, I thought it'd be a really good idea to have really high-resolution pictures for all the graphics on my little site. Coming from a printing point-of-view, which is my background, high resolution is good. The higher the better, even, because the higher the resolution the sharper and cleaner your images look in print. It was only later that I learned that a monitor can't display a resolution above 72dpi. (Maybe that's changed now, but that was the case when I started.) So all of my images were about 5 times larger in file size than they needed to be, so essentially the site, as dinky as it was, was using about 5 times more bandwidth than it should have been using and I'm sure it took for-freaking-ever to download, especially because at the time broadband wasn't prevalent!:D Live and learn, as they say, and I learned that lesson quickly!

Maybe people out there aren't as dumb and clueless as I was when I started building websites, but I'll bet that there are some Sims sites out there that are way larger, in terms of file sizes and therefore in terms of bandwidth usage, than they really need to be. So that, too, would be something I'd look into before I'd start asking for donations, to see if I could "trim the fat" off the site to bring its bandwidth usage more under control. Lots of text instead of graphics, no fancy layouts, using style sheets that only have to download once the entire time a person is on your site, using smaller preview pics, etc. It might make your site less eye-catching and attractive, but if it was a choice between aesthetics and closing my site, aesthetics would lose.

As for hosts...Well, as has been pointed out there are some Sims sites that would simply not qualify for relatively cheap shared hosting. The amount of traffic they receive would require dedicated server hosting, which is much more expensive than shared hosting. I tend to think -- though I may be wrong, of course -- that this would be the case for only a minority of sites, ones like MTS2 that host hundreds of thousands of files and have probably thousands of visitors a day, merrily downloading away.

Maybe some of the people here can correct me if I'm wrong but it seems to me that on average a CC file, huge "supersets" aside, is usually less than about 5MB in file size. So, say I had 50 5MB files available for download, for a storage total of the downloadable files of 250MB. If all of those files were each downloaded 4 times in one month, that would be 1GB of bandwidth usage, yes? (Mind, I'm not counting the bandwidth for the preview pics and the HTML pages and such. I'm assuming that most of the bandwidth used on Sims sites is used by people downloading the zip/rar files, not so much from looking at all the pretty pictures. Correct me if I'm wrong about this, too. :) ) So, in order to reach only 100GB of transfer (and, so far as I know, several times that would fall well within the normal parameters and limitations for most shared hosting plans), my 50 5MB files would have to be downloaded 400 times each in a single month. (Or, some would have to be downloaded more than others in whatever combination to add up to 100GB of file downloads.) That...seems like a lot of downloads to me. I'm sure some small but high-profile Sims site achieve that regularly, but I can't see that happening on ALL of them. Or am I just being naive here and sites get even more traffic than that? Or am I just calculating bandwidth incorrectly?

I mean, either way I obviously don't think it's right to charge for content in order to defray your hosting costs. I'm just, frankly, skeptical of the sites, free or otherwise, who claim they need donations because of bandwidth when they don't offer a whole lot of content for download. When I'm skeptical, I don't donate to them unless and until I can be relatively certain that I'm not being scammed. I do donate to MTS2 and intend to donate to Nouk because I can plainly see that their site/network of sites would be gigantic bandwidth-eaters. But I'm not seeing the same thing for many small single-creator sites I've visited. So, bottom line, I'm wondering if my skepticism is warranted or if my knowledge is simply lacking.

And...I had other things to say/ask, but I've got errands to run, so it'll have to wait. :)

Well, first of all, you can download MilkShape (a meshing program) for free and use it for a month before you have to pay for it (a very small amount), and there are a number of free programs that can be used for recoloring, so cost really shouldn't be an issue in that respect. It's honestly just running a site that costs anything, unless you are attached to a specific costly program instead of using the free ones that are available. And, I personally know dozens of people that use warez; I don't advocate it, but it's always an option. ;) It's not necessary to go down that route, though, even if you don't have any money, because (yay!) free/cheap, legal options are readily available.

As for the bandwidth issue, I really can't speak on it because I don't have personal experience. But I do know that there are plenty of sites out there in the Sims community that run into bandwidth issues, and it's a lot more complicated than you might think. Piggi's Sims is one of my favorite sites for Maxis object recolors, and she has hundreds of files on her site. She uses preview pictures, but not an extraordinary amount of fancy stuff that might choke up the bandwidth, as far as I can tell. Still, two or three months ago she hit her bandwidth limit and was in danger of being shut down, at least temporarily. The wonderful people over at SimsCave hosted all of her files for the remainder of the month, and asked people to download from them rather than from poor Piggi, or her site would die.

Up until that point, she had never reached her bandwidth limit, and suddenly she surpassed it when the month was only half completed. I don't think Piggi ever expected that her site would suddenly spike in popularity to such a degree, and she wasn't prepared financially to do anything about it. She didn't start charging for content, she merely asked people to ease up on the site for a little while so she wouldn't be shut down that month. And the community came to her aid.

Basically, the bandwidth issue is a complicated one, and can't always be answered by smart host-shopping and simplistic site design. Popularity, for one thing, cannot always be predicted. Either way, no one here is going to argue with you about bandwidth issues not justifying paysites, but as several people have pointed out, the widely loved "bandwidth excuse" is no longer practiced by the vast majority of paysites because nobody is buying it. Smaller sites just don't need that much bandwidth, and the giants make far more money than they would ever need for the purposes of maintaining the site. It's an issue of ratios, really, and just about everyone knows that the bandwidth argument has been debunked.

That said, there are still plenty of reasons why a free site might need a little extra money to be maintained. Honestly, I don't see what's wrong with requesting donations. Nobody is obligated to contribute; smaller sites don't require that much money to run, and larger sites usually have enough members that even 5% of members contributing a dollar here and there is significant. And if my favorite creators are willing to spend their hard-earned RL money on their hobby, I don't have any problem with doing the same from time to time. The difference between donation drives and paysites is that paysites require you to contribute, or you don't get the goodies.

I also love a particular site (which shall be unnamed) with a forum and a fair amount of content, but nothing enormous. A few months ago the site owner asked if anyone could help with a donation. The very first person to donate gave $10, thus paying for bandwidth for a month and a half. Now, according to your stance, one might be irritated and wonder why this site owner couldn't shell out $7 from her own pocket for the month. Well, having been a poor college student myself, I fully understand. When I was in school, I easily could have eaten on $7 for 2 weeks, maybe more. Does that mean that this site owner should have just closed the doors and shut down her site just because she didn't have any extra cash? I don't think so. Several hundred people in her forum would have been devastated, and some great content would have been lost. So, in order to keep that from happening, she appealed to her friends and forum members, and one person's small donation, which would have bought a fast food meal and a cup of coffee at best, kept the site running.

Anyway, I don't think there's anything wrong with being wary of sites that ask for donations, but I think you might be a little more paranoid than is absolutely necessary. ;) A site that asks for money all the time might be a little suspicious, but there are plenty of perfectly wonderful sites that are kept running on donations alone, simply because the communities there would hate to see the sites go down, and lots of other sites that simply need a little assistance now and then. Nothing wrong with that.

IIRC, it's about $US40 at the moment - Milkshape.


There's actually a site that helps with HTML and site coding - My Sim Site - started by Vashti and hosted by WNF.


Yep.


I don't think that would be hard to achieve, actually.  For example, my site (which is hosted on Sublime, along with Hecubus' site and the Simmers against Securom site - meaning that there are four sites on there all together - 3 of them content heavy) I did an update in October last year. 3gb in 6 days - which isn't a huge amount - except that it was mostly recolours, only pirates really know about my site (certainly at that time) - and that's not counting all the other sites on the same hosting.  Should I be a hair mesher, I have no doubt it would be like a frenzy - 200 people might run to my site for something, but 600 people might run to Helga Sims for a new hair, or more people know about another site.

As far as filesizes - it's easy to go above 5gb. I have 14 files (that are just sims) over 5gb, a couple over 10mb, and I have 40 (some sims and some houses) over 4gb. I don't use any custom content in my houses, but if I did, that would make it even higher. Hecubus' Masterpeice Fallingwater (http://www.illusionsofgrandeur-ts2.com/fallingwater.html) is 48mb to download. So all that bandwidth limit would be easy to achieve - just 20 people download that a month - and bam, you hit the limit you've mentioned - and that's not even one person per day. And that's assuming that people download one thing this month from your site - there are lots of other things - I have 975mb worth of stuff on my site - that's a lot of choice in downloading - and that's just my site - that's not counting Hecubus' or Sublime which has been going for years.

As I've said, I don't think that it's wrong, per se, to ask for donations, so long as content isn't being "held hostage." I've said that, for me personally, it would be the very last thing I'd do. I might do it if all other options were exhausted, once I'd checked to make sure that my site was as lean as it could be, once I'd shopped around to compare and contrast hosts, once I'd bled my own budget, etc. If I'd gone through all that and still was in the red, so to speak, then I, myself, would likely close, move my content to a place like MTS2, and then give them whatever money I could in return for hosting my stuff. (Although if I couldn't give them any money, I wouldn't dump my stuff on them, either.) That way no one loses the content, and I'm not asking anyone to help me. Maybe I just have too much pride. :)

Of course, I realize that different people are in different places in life. I was at one time a starving college student, too (20 years ago :) ) and I have at times been unemployed with only infrequent and unpredictable writing jobs to keep me going and pay for rent and food. I'm more stable now, so I have some options. Not everyone's in that same place. I realize that.


I am paranoid, yes, at least when it comes to giving anonymous online people that I don't know money. :) I am actually a generous person, in general, and will give readily when I know that my donation is really needed and that it will really be used for what the person or organization asking for it is saying that they need it for. I donate both time and money to several charities such as, for one, Habitat for Humanity. I am admittedly wary, however, of giving to a site if I'm really just supporting someone's hobby. Chalk it up to newness in the community, I suppose. Maybe I'll get past it, maybe I won't. :) More information about what these sites' costs truly are would help in that regard.

And now I really do need to go run those errands. Off the computer with me. :)

Hey Celligirl

I have to say, I appreciate your passion on this topic.. I actually would love to see you get on MTS and maybe get into running a free site, because even though you're saying you don't understand everything yet, I think if you start running small sites you could probably turn round and help others very effectively.

There's the "worrying about how the site operates thing" and there's the "we all help each other out" thing.. I for one am a regular contributor to MTS, and have been for something like the last year.. (I imagine there's a few of us on here, and lots of people I know help out MTS2). I also contributed about 80 bucks towards Sublime when the donation drive was on, because even though I don't own the site anymore, I love being there and I see it as my home, so I wanted to do what I could.

If we all help out the free sites of whatever size when they genuinely need it, then we get to keep that content free for everyone. And the key is, those kinds of donations ARE optional and if we help when we can if those sites genuinely need it (like Insim right now) then we're not faced with a situation where the free sites ALL dissapear and everyone has to go to Thomas and Peggy for their content.. You'll find over time the fact that we help each other out by doing stuff like sharing hosting, or helping each other with our sites, or giving someone five or ten bucks because they're strugglilng with their hosting is the thing that seperates the free sites and the pay..

Ah, I could keep talking because there was a lot more I wanted to explain.. but I have to go attend to Simmers Against Securom. ;)

Cheers

Kath

I understand your point Celligirl. I much prefer donating to sites that are very clear on their expenses and what they need to keep operating. Nouk's site is a good example of how to run a donation drive properly.

you said it. Thanks. I agree  ;)

Edit: in stead of double posting. I see that some free sites also use Zip files, while Rar take up less room on the server.
There are always useful to make some changes to free more space in my opinion.

I don't think it has anything to do with newness to the community and everything to do with the fact that you see no need to be forced in to paying for somebody's hobby, which is perfectly reasonable. My entire religion is basically built around donations and charity, but really, unless I was 95% positive that money would go where it was meant to go and/or if the person needs money to keep doing their hobby (say, they needed $50 for hosting within a month), I wouldn't donate. I'm just not trusting enough for that. And I'm certainly not going to donate if you're basically forcing me to pay just to experience the results of your hobby.

Really, that fits for anything. When I go to a craft show, I don't pay $10 for the actual item that's worth less than $1 retai. I give up those $10 because I want to creator to continue making things.

Also, we keep saying that by helping out or donating to a free site that it is supporting "thier" hobby.  I dont see it that way as much as supporting "my" hobby.  My hobby is downloading.  Really.  I enjoy the treasure hunt everyday to see what is new in the community.  There are certain sites that I go to constantly because they have such great stuff that happens to be my taste or style (like piggi's).  If the site owners there followed your model, Celligirl, and decided to close rather than let us know they needed a little help every once in a while, then I would be so dissapointed and sad.  The paysites prove just how much money is changing hands in this community. If each one of us just took the little bit that we feel comfortable with (if you have any extra) and supported the free sites that make the stuff you like the most then we could ensure that those sites continue to be available to all.  Its like casting a vote in favor of freesites and the content you want to keep around.

Like I said, if I thought donating was supporting someone else's hobby then maybe I would feel like you do but since I don't create, I definitely see helping out a freesite as supporting my hobby more than thiers.

If someone can't afford to maintain a free site, there's nothing wrong with asking for help. Right now, I can't really spare the cash to donate to other sites. I'm only saying that if they are specific and open about the costs involved, it's a bit easier.

I suppose *friends* are helping *friends*. And i suppose many here know each other and help each other out to keep a single site afloat.
I don't know any of these freesite owners, in this society i don't bother to know all of them, i am tired of all the money shit. You don't excatly
want to help out total strangers who asks you for money. Unless it's for charity via organisations i trust. If people want that Peggy hair, they
don't go to freesites and downloading another hair, they want that hair no matter what, that's why we have Peggy's hair in the booty, same
with Rose and stuff from TSR. To make these items available for everybody is the idea behind PMBD. 
Of course i can see the importance of freesites, i really do. And i preciate that many of you have time to create and share it around. And i really encourage people to keep on.

Nouk is Nouk, no matter what, some want her hair, (and leather *snickers*), yes she make more than hair. And they get it for free. I trust both Nouk and MTS2. In my opinion there is no need to donate to other than them, they have most of what people need, and like i said in an earlier post, an excellent alternative
to Rose, Peggy, TSR.

Single siteowners should use RAR files when packing the files, it takes up less space on the server. One can get that program for free too on Cnet. Many are still using zip files. I would do anything to save space if i created Custom Content (CC).

Like Cellgirl i have also a website with graphics, maybe not that heavy, but with high resolution photos, animations and photoshopped stuff. Its a part of my hobby. But i had to switch host, since my site with photos were loading so slow i could go and do the dishes in the meantime.
My new host helped, cause it had more bandwidth, and i still used stylesheets to make it look pretty.

Is it just me or is it just in sims 2 community it has been so common to think it's ok to support fansites with money? I have been in other game communites, why are they not asking for money? Lately i browsed FF7 community, Final Fantasy VII, and they are both meshing and modding, making stuff. They are not asking for a cent or a penny. It's their hobby, and they love to do it. They would go like HUH? if someone started to ask for money to keep on with their hobby. I have also seen a lot of freesites who never ask for support. They handle their own bills. So i will not support anyone else
than Nouks Family and MTS2.

When Insim started to ask for donations, ( i hardly ever go over there), i said, sure, you have made insim, i will help you. While i was boiling inside, cause they have never excatly been nice over there.  It's a Sims 2 thing, you should donate to be a decent person. Is it a part to destroy paysites
to help out single siteowners who's going down? No, not in my opinion. To destroy paysites is to get that damm paysite stuff into the booty
so the payitems can be available for everyone.  Is it a part to destroy paysites to create fresites, yes, i think so.  Since so many freesites do not even think of asking for support, i can't see it as a great loss if someone has to close cause they can't pay for their hobby.

To Cellgirl: A single package is around 300 to 500KB. A set i have with 35 files, is around 5.39MB, that is a kitchen set from a paysite.

It's also very important to create in sims 2 community, and i have often asked myself, are they creating for the players or themself, to get popular?
( i do know some few who are really nice, and create for the fun of it, but never ask for help to a single website).
This is how Sims 2 community has been like. It's not so much for players anymore, it's for those who create and make hacks
to the game, be it freesites or paysites.  I feel that MATY has understood it. JM Pescado seems to know that he's making
hacks for the players, even if he's scary and really don't bother about people, but i've seen others that just want to stroke their egos.

I mentioned the importance to help out with the booty now and then, to donate to PMBD, but was met with hostility. I don't get it.

I am a photographer, an addicted one, and i have bought my own camera, i have paid for my own Photoshop program, and adobe After effects.
I have also bought the program Milkshape, in case... Just in case i started to mesh for sims 2.  I have Bryce, Poser 7,  and some other 3d programs. 
I have bought my own ceasel and oilpaint, i love to draw and paint- since i can't knit, i have other hobbies. Once i tried to knit a sweater to my partner, it came out like a tent. I don't know what's wrong with me and knitting, but it does not fit me. My art, it has something to do with my profession, but i never give out personal information on internet, cause i am "paranoid". If someones freesite is going down because they can't afford to pay the bills, sorry mate, not my table, Pay for your own hobby, like i do, or let your friends help you out.





 

I don't think Celligirl ever said free sites should never ask for donations, just that she personally wouldn't if she ran one. (She did say that if you're a CC creator and can't afford to run your own Sims fansite, then maybe you should take advantage of MTS2/WNF, but I don't think that's the same thing as telling them to close up shop.)

Okay, I know this is a bit late in the conversation to go back to this, but I've had a really busy day today. (So there!) Glasscigarette mentioned Piggi's Sims earlier today, and how a while back there was a sudden spike in bandwidth usage and they were close to having to shut down. Now, I love Piggi's Sims, I download a ton of stuff from there, and if I'd heard about this at the time I would have helped them out. But at the same time, I have to say that I really don't think they're doing everything they can to decrease the amount of bandwidth they're incurring. The big thing that stands out for me is that I very rarely want more than a handful of recolours (or even just one or two), but the only option is to download the entire set and weed out the ones I don't want. Since a good percentage of these sets have twenty recolours, I end up wasting 75-95% of the bandwidth I'm using nearly every time I download. As much as it's convenient to me, as a downloader, to be able to grab all the files at once, splitting those zip files up would be the first thing I'd do when I noticed my bandwidth usage spiking.
(I'm not trying to pick on Piggi here, just referring to this as one example. I've seen similar things on other sites - clothing meshes being included in every file instead of just linked to, for instance.)

*fake edit*
Luna, if you want I can PM you with a few reasons why that sweater may have turned out so big. I'd post here, but there's been far too much knitting talk in this thread already I think.

And Cala, I think you meant megabytes, not gigabytes. I'm pretty sure my computer would blow up if I tried to play a 48GB lot! ;)

Yes, would you please!  :D I can't knit! I have learned to weave, do you know what that is? Maybe i use the wrong word. I can sew, but don't like it.
I made a Toddlerhawk when my daughter was a baby.  I was so proud of it.

To topic: well, it's after all a personal opinion, one can choose to donate to a single site, or skip it. The same goes for MTS2 and Nouks family,
a donation is a donations, it's voluntary. We all know how the paysites use Donations wrong. They can call it payset, cause that's what it really is.

I did! Will change it now. Thanks. It seemed wrong when I was reading it - but I thought it was just because of the link.

From all the sites in the WickedNoukFamily, Noukiesims2 uses the most bandwidth. Between 550-650 GB a month. If you go to my site, it's not big. We're there with 6 creators, and most of us use the Compressorizer by Jfade to make stuff smaller. I should pull up some stats and see how we're doing. We all upload stuff to other sites (except for Ira) like Modthesims2, Insimenator, GardenOfShadows, WickedNoukForum,TheSmutResource (not me haha), etc, so the load does get shared with other sites.
A few months ago we started using Wordpress and the website used about 50 gigs a month less.

Even if your website only needs 30 cents a month to stay afloat, I have no problem if you still ask for a donation. I do have a problem if you do not give clarity on what you need and why. If people don't do that, I'm not inclined to donate unless I know you personally.

I love you for compressorizing, Nouk.  I can just put your stuff right in the game, unless it's clothes that I have to make available Adult/YA/Elder because I just put Adult clothes on my old sims. :P

So many sites could save a bit on bandwidth if they'd just fucking COMPRESSORIZE their files.  Some of them go down 2/3rds in size!  The Zip vs. Rar thing is really, really moot compared to the difference that makes.

I agree. Compressorizing FTW!

Another compressorizor fan here! 

Everything on our site is run through the compressorizor before being stuck in a rar.  Still, we've already gone through well over 180GB of bandwidth this month.  While I'm sure this won't be the norm (after all, it's not every month we'll be uploading a year and a half's worth of work all in one go), it helps illustrate that even a single site can go through a lot of bandwidth even when they're careful about their file sizes.  Like those on Nouk's sites, we both also upload sets to GoS once in a while. 

As for Club Crimsyn, our site has actually gotten enough donations to pay for an entire year's worth of hosting at this point.  We considered removing the link entirely, but want to give people the choice of donating to us if they still want to.  Instead, we have a big ol' paragraph about our site being paid for and encourage people to consider donating to other quality free sites instead.   :)

Well, since i am not an expert on this, i got it from this 100% freesite. I am sure they also use a compressorizor before they make it into a .rar file.
http://www.downtown-sims.com - I saw in their FAQ they didn't want to use zip-files, someone asked them why they didn't.
Tell the owners their argument is Moot. (for some or another reason i dislike that word - *moot*).

Your argument is moot! Your argument is moot! MOOOOOOT MOOOOT MOOOOOOOT *runs away*

For some reason I imagine you saying "MOOOOT MOOOOOOT!" like a train and then shuffling away with a line of carriages behind you.


I think I need help.

Great. Now I can't keep Thomas the Tank Engine out of my mind  ... thanks a LOT! :) :)

I need rum. Lots of rum.

Don't haff to hide for me  ;) I know you're not evil. >:) Or, i am not 100% sure of course.
MOOOTs back!  >>|:(

ROTFL

My god! I am a moron. All this time I've been compressorizing the files I play with - it never occurred to me to do the same with the ones I upload!
DOH!

Looks like I'm going to be doing a lot of reposting tomorrow. :-\
z

Ohmigosh! I never even knew the Compressorizer existed! Holy cow! My Downloads folder was approaching 3GB. After reading about this program, I decided to go through and purge stuff I don't use and compress everything that I wanted to keep. Now my DL folder is...357MB. Zowie. Now I feel like I need to go download MOAR STUFFZ!  ;D

Also, at some point in time I will have a Sims site. I make lots, mostly, though I'm taking baby steps into recoloring stuff. Mostly paintings, at the moment. But when I get that going. Oh, yeah. Compressorizer is my new best friend. I'm just sorry it only works on Sims files. :)

On another note...I had a 13MB bed in my dl folder. 13MB. For a bed. The hell? And I've never used it. Must've been one of those that looked good in the preview pic but crappy in the game. I can't even figure out how one can manage to make a 13MB bed. All the rest of the beds were around 200KB before compression, but that one? Weeeeeird. I also had something of Buntah's in my downloads. A massively ugly clock. Kill me now. Must've come with a lot I downloaded or something because I would not have downloaded that thing of my own volition... ;D

Oh, Celligirl. Your downloads have been polluted by the vile Buntah? Put your feet up and let me dab your brow. And, for god's sake, somebody make this woman some tea...with valium, preferably. It's going to be a looong recovery... ;)

A 13 MB bed?!  :o That has got to be a record. Where did you get that from?

LoL  :D I wonder what that bed is made of :)

Btw. I really like your site Moune ;)

You know, when I first saw the file size on the thing, I figured that it had to be a whole bedroom set. But I checked it out by going to it in the game and nope, it was just a bed. It didn't look like anything special -- Looked rather crappy, actually -- but it's a ginormous file. The other pieces of the set were scattered around in various subfolders in my downloads folder. I'll have to see if I can backtrack and  figure out where I got it. When I first discovered the wonders of CC, I...er, wasn't very organized, I'm afraid. *laughs* It was just called "Bed Brown," so that's not very helpful. :)

And thanks, GC. I feel much better now. :) As for the Buntah thing...It's gone. I killed it...WITH FIRE! :) But the fire didn't work! so I had to take an axe to it, too. :) Seriously, I don't know why someone felt compelled to put that thing in whatever lot I got it from. It was severely uuuuuuuuuuuugly. But I guess there's no accounting for taste.

Celli, use Clean Installer to go through your downloads folders and suss it out.  I would love to look at its guts and see if it's got, oh, the Pentagon Papers imbedded, or maybe the first season of Pinky and the Brain in it.

Hey, Hec....are you thinking what I'm thinking??
But where will we get rubber boots that large? :D

*one is a genius, the other insane...*

Now I'll have that stuck in my head all day....*snort*

 think so, Brain but isn’t Regis Philbin already married?

OK, so I did a little poking at the 13MB bed. According to the item description, it came from www.simy.pl (http://www.simy.pl). So, I conclude that I must've gotten it from a lot I downloaded. That site's in Polish, and I couldn't find where to go to download files because I no can reads teh Polish.

Anyway, here's a pic:
(http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll170/celliegirl_pics/the_13MB-bed.jpg)
I can't see any reason why the file size would be so big. There's some detail on the wood's texture and the bedding's texture, but nothing extreme. Could it have custom animations, maybe? Sounds? I've never used the thing in the game, so I don't know.

(Incidentally, this is the first in-game screenshot I've ever taken. I'm such a n00b. :) )

And in case anyone's curious about the file and knows how to poke at the code or something, I uploaded it to my SkyDrive. I think this link might work: http://cid-902121e9db8caf22.skydrive.live.com/self.aspx/stuffz/13MBbed.zip (http://cid-902121e9db8caf22.skydrive.live.com/self.aspx/stuffz/13MBbed.zip). I'm not sure that it'll work, though, since I've only ever used the SkyDrive to store stuff for my own nefarious purposes, not share stuff.

Anyway, there you go. I'd love know why the heck that file is so darn big. It's actually almost 14MB...

Unless I can use it as a RL bed, nothing justifies that file size. Unless perhaps I can use it as a RL bed, and it makes me breakfast every morning. It's kinda cute...but nearly 14 MB? Really?

13,667KB, to be exact. Insane, yes. I guess I should use it in my game and see if it does anything special. Like, indeed, make breakfast. :) Because otherwise? Way too big. Not even hairs are that big, and I've got some big hairs in my dl folder...

For one thing, it has huge, and redundant might I add, textures.

I just looked at the package in SimPE, and I found Jimmy Hoffa.   :o

lol Hec!

I um, really like the bed. If someone would make the wood texture finer, but still darkwood and remove all the unneccesary stuff, it would be really nice.
*sigh* As is, my game lags enough. Pity tho.  :'(
Nice beds are hard to come by.

It compressorizes down to 5.18 meg, if that helps... I'd say it's got a lot of redundancy, which tells me this person just didn't know how to clone the object properly. Or how to make decent-sized texture files that maintain good resolution.

Oh yeah, the missing 18.5 minutes of the Watergate tapes is in there too. ;)

Well Hec, you said it. It's got too much redundancy. That's the kill right there, total lack of interest :) There is better stuff out there, I am making it my mission to find it!

*snicker* And all this time people have been looking inside the foundations of buildings when they should have been looking inside computer files! :D

Big, redundant textures, huh? I assume that they're big and redundant in the file because they don't look big and redundant in the image.

*sigh* One of these days I need to figure out how to use SimPE to do other stuff besides mucking about with my Sims' stats. :)

I agree with Dee the bed could be prettified. If the textures were simply redone, would that reduce the file size or is the problem inherent in something else. (Yes, I am a n00b at this. Shut up. ;) )

Could it be items like that who causes the game crashing? I once got my game crashed cause of a diningroomset.

Well I don't think big items like that will cause a crash, that is usually done when coding is corrupt, or you have items that share the same GUID, or it's an object hack/mod and it's interfering with something else.
Something this big, like a 14MB bed, will just cause your game to lag because your computer works harder to draw it on the screen.  8) I is smrt.

you deserve cookies and uhm rum for that.  ;)
Which mean, you're a smart girl!

For one thing, they cloned the animations, and if they are the same as the Maxis anims, it's pointless.

They also used 1024 when 512 would have sufficed on the bedding frame, and they cloned a couple of beddings with it, and their alphas are huge.

Wow, maybe we should start looking for Harold Holt in there  :o

I read up to page 5, so I haven't read the past few pages (you appear to have gone off the topic and be talking about Maxis furniture and someone called Harold Holt, anyway), but I wanted to say that, celligirl, you made an excellent first post and I found it very true and realistic.
I've been writing different types of fanfiction since I was twelve years old (all heavily "disclaimer"-ed) and original fiction since I was five/Pescado's zero and I understand how completely wrong it is to charge for it (although I did go through a period of time where I wrote for myself--and relatively well, if I do say so myself--but still asked people to review to soothe my heart *headdesk*--suffice to say, I no longer do that. I have also received my fair share of flames and hatemail, so I know what that feels like, too).
I was a member of the community for people complaining about those charging for fanfiction--yes, there really WAS one of those--and I can say that there WERE people charging. In fact, there's a particular Star Wars novel on Amazon.com which is a fanfiction novel and the author is working for themselves and profitting quite nicely from this book which is unlinked to the SW franchise. I think this is disgusting. It is all well and done to be asked to write a novel in a particular series; Doctor Who, Buffy and Star Wars do it all the time: they get anyone to write a novel and put it in their series. However, choosing to write a novel with someone else's characters and to gain monetarily from is wrong.

But it was an excellent analogy, minding this particular author.

I'd say the main reason for the size are those ridiculously big texture maps. But it also has a relatively high poly mesh. Yeah, I know it's pretty boxy, but those pillows and the bedspread literally contain hundreds of unnecessary vertices. The pillows alone stand at more than 2000.  ::)

2000 for pillows?! Eugh, they were the only things about that bed I liked.

I can only say the bed baffles and bamboozles me. 

But as a fellow n00b, I would like to bow down and offer rum and cookies to celligirl for genius posts. i iz jellous. i cant even misspellz well :'(

Back to the bed: bewildering ;D