PMBD

Was reading Windkeeper's blog on TSR and this is her latest update:

heheh well we dont have  to worry i have got everything i need off TSR on this site

O RLY?

Tch. TSR sucks...I bet next, the sub will go up, for even less content.

HChansomethingother must've gotten through Windkeeper in her desire for an ALL PAY DAY with content.

That's niiiiiiiice.

yeah that's bullshit. people only donated for the FA stuff anyway.  :roll:

wow TSR is just being stingy now.

I doubt their sales dropped like stated b4 people only subbed there for the FA stuff.

I actually didn't mind subscribing to TSR before they made the recent changes, but all these new FA's they've brought onboard are crap.  I rarely see anything really interesting come up in the "coming soon" sidebar anymore, and when something does, it's invariably from Windkeeper or Cashcraft or one of the other FA's who've been there all along.

They'd probably have more subscribers if they limited their Featured Artists to people with real talent who make unique items instead of flooding their pay section with the same kind of craptastic items you can get on any Sims site.  :p

I don't see why they made the non-featured stuff all free in the first place.  While no one likes paying a subscription, TSR was one of the few we I would sub to, because of the convenience of having any of the files when we wanted without waiting.   Psychologically it was wrong to make the recent change cos I now feel I am paying $6 a month for only one or two downloads a month.  While the FA's are quite good, the couple of things I have each month I *could* make for myself.

Anyway, this new move puts TSR over the threshold into being a proper pay site under the terms of PMBD - ie they now have certain content which can *only* be obtained by paying.

Clearly TSR enrolled in a course at the Carla Niven School of Business Management.

Oh really?  I find that free is the best price... and there are certainly a lot much better stuff floating around on those sites.  I was almost offended till I realized I didn't care that much.

That is bullshit.  :?

Even more bullshit is his claim to be running into financial problems because of those FA items being free. I know for a fact he's making very generous offers to creators around the community in order to lure them to his site, the sort that certainly don't imply a lack of money, if you get my meaning.  8)  Besides, someone did the math once. The profit he makes off TSR is huge.

I think TSR has now lived up to its name, they really are the Shit Repository  :x

I also notice that the site as a whole hasn't mentioned this little alteration, it's thus far only there for people who care to do a little digging...I mean, out of most general, everyday users, who actually reads the FA's blogs?

I stalk FAs all the time.

Allllll the time.

Ohmigoodness, this made me LOL.  :lol:

Umm, I do? When I go to Windkeeper's site to pillage her shit, her blog updates are there. No digging involved, stupid Oniella.

its up to the FA's how much of their crap is free each week, windkeeper is just explaining that they don't want their stuff to be free anymore but blaming it on low subscription sales.
Which is bullshit and makes me think that s/he is getting paid a percentage not just a set amount (like someone said before it was estimated at $250 a month)....why else would windkeeper give a shit about how sales are doing? lol
Also why is it windkeeper has time to blog about how poor TSR is going to be, but has no time to reply to peoples' polite pm's regarding their creations? I know of a few people who have pmed him/her almost a month ago and are still waiting for a response.
and tsr is the  :twisted:

10.000 downloads = 10 dollars, and (in the beginning) you can make a max of 300 dollars. But it differs per artist. That is the first offer you get.

300 dollars? Its an effing game! I wouldn't spend that much on a needed business app!

That's really low compared to what some sites get offered to shut down.

TSR must have gone to the Bill Gates School of Business.

Do tell...

I feel sick...

Hehehe, why? I have never encountered one 100% honest bussiness man in my life. It's to be expected. When it's about big money, most play it somewhat or completely dirty. Bussiness is bussiness, and to him these are investments. If people don't go for it, he'll find someone else.

Well it just seems things are actually going the *wrong* way rather than the right way.  With TSR planning to make some of their content completely pay-only, they're a  big player.  It's quite a big statement.

I also feel annoyed with myself because right at the beginning I actually supported the existence of paysites, because I felt they increased the variety and richness of the total simming experience.   In Sims 1 there wasn't so much movement of creators between sites, but now TSR is becoming like a black hole sucking them in.

Anyway when a tool maker or someone and I have forgotten exactly who, wanted to make their utility available to free sites only, I was one of the voices dissuading them so they didn't in the end.   I do wish I had supported that plan now.

Paying for stuff makes the experience more varied and rich HOW exactly?

In the Sims1, there were nowhere near as many creators or sites in total - well not that I could see anyway.  Especially code modders.  Places like SimSlice and 8th deadly sim were more or less essential!

I considered the Magic Mirror essential back then.  That was pretty much it.  Custom content wasn't as essential back then as it is now.

Well, YMMV, but CC was pretty essential to me and many of the people I knew back then :D

That's why I specified general, everyday users. People who have their sub, and just go and download stuff. I haven't downloaded anything from TSR forever, so it may have changed, but I almost never visited any of the FA's pages, I didn't really give a shit what they were up to, I just downloaded whatever was new since last time, and left.

My point was, one would only see this new policy, if they specifically went to Windkeeper's page, which isn't something everyone does all the time...

that place has reeked of bullshit for a long time... they just added a fresh pile

I really wish EA would investigate ole Thomas. I think he's making a LOT of money off their copyrighted materials. He's like some petty mafioso, taking a cut, gobbling up good sites and mixing them with his giant pile of crap.  :roll: Makes me sick too.

I think he's probably running around to other forums making sure all mention of this site is completely censored. He was happy to let Rose take all the heat for the paypal thing too.

What a piece of work! And Windkeeper makes great stuff, but sounds like she's just as bad.  :evil:

Are you sure?  Her words, "To help promote subscription, free rotation of our creations is limited or even completely stopped by now. It's hard to say what will it be in the future. But I support this move..." make it SEEM as if the decision to 'limit or completely stop' the free rotation is a decision made by someone other than her, and as a means to hopefully increase subscriptions in general, rather than a decision made by herself to increase her own commissions.  She seems to be trying to sound a little regretful (heh) but, well, she's working for TSR, so I'm not really buying it.

I did see where Thomas originally said that the FA's themselves would decide which of their items would be on free rotation and that the FA's would be in control of this--which agrees with what you said.

So either TSR is at least advising the FA's to be a bit stingy with putting items on free rotation to try and drive up subscriptions, or the FA's themselves are being a little stingy to drive up commisions, or some of both.

I just went over to TSR and set the filter thingy to show me downloads that are both FREE and by FA's.  There were 96 files.  (And I didn't like any of them, unsurprisingly.) Thomas did originally say "a handful" of free FA items each week.  The hand is simply getting smaller, I reckon.

I haven't downloaded from TSR in ages, and I have a current sub.  I don't suppose I shall be renewing.  Some of the FAs produce excellent work, but for a long time now I haven't spotted anything that struck me as being "just what I need".   In the early days, a few bits of modern architecture from Windkeeper were essential, but now EA have made their own and it's easily recolourable.

The only thing happening on TSR that is unique is Cyclone Sue's industrial stuff, and I don't have scenaria in my game that can use it.

Oddly enough, since I have really turned against the concept of pay content, I have actually also gone off the objects concerned too!

I really wish they would investigate him, too. He's the bad apple that's ruining TSR. TSR isn't the first site he's gotten ahold of and ruined, either. He and his family own ibibi corporation, and at one time they had as many as 20-odd gaming sites, and guess what? Tanked them all.

He is a huuuuuuge asshole. It's quite freeing to say that. I've been wanting to for a long time.

He does indeed operate like a petty thug: if you have any interaction with him at all it's quite obvious he doesn't give a damn about anything but the Almighty Dollar.

And Windkeeper is in his pocket. After all, she's his cash cow.

Why he thinks he can sneak around and commit crimes and act like a greedy bastard without people TALKING ABOUT HIS BEHAVIOR is beyond me. I mean, really. How out of touch with reality do you have to be to expect to get by with behavior like that? His greed completely blinds him, and that blindness is the reason for his repeated failures. Just a matter of time until his next one, from the looks of things.

You guys most likely don't frequent TSR but I check in every day just to see what nonsense is up. Another new FA added to the heap. Forwardmotion now.

And, there's a news article up today that they gutted the ratings system and just went to a thank you thing. I lost my silver status and the kudos to go with it and now all my items I downloaded are gone as well. Guess it's not needed since we can't rate any more. I sort of used it to keep track of what I hadn't tested in my game though. Or compare a Photoshopped image on TSR to the piece of crap that got put into my game.

I always got fair ratings and was once at gold status, but eventually went silver. I was still happy. I like silver better than gold anyway.  :D  But... I also get thanked a million times over in my guestbook so I never felt I wasn't appreciated. But then again, I really don't give a shit what other people think of my stuff. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I choose whether or not to accept it.

I dunno, I think it was another stupid move for TSR. At least, as a creator I feel that way. Just makes me want to get my own site up faster. Don't worry, it will all be free. Well, unless I need to upgrade my computer or need a kidney transplant. Then I'll have to make it donation.  :lol:

Oh, we know about Forward Motion. To celebrate my seething rage, I pillaged everything that is up for grabs. Coming soon to a Booty near you.

:lol:  I figured you all knew. Somebody has to keep an eye on that site, as much as you don't like it. It really is going downhill fast.

I like the way in the comments, the first few were of the 'WOW THIS IS GRET THANX!! *icon spam*', then the murmurs of dissent started to creep in...

I also noticed Thomas said this:



Like....fuck's sake. It would REALLY be in their best interests to quit messing with it. Almost every 'change' they've made recently have had rather a lot of complaints...There was really nothing very wrong with it in the first place, before they started making all these changes...

EXACTLY! It wasn't broke! Don't touch it guys! Jeepers.

I've given Thomas my 2 cents on every change. I'm usually not in favor of any of them. I can't see how they make TSR better. It wasn't bad to begin with and just because some people whined doesn't justify a change for the many.

And yeah... that ONE of MANY gets me. How much more are they going to screw up the site and piss more people off? And he's bitching subscriptions are going down? Not only do the standards for CC need to go up and all that crap weeded out but he needs to stop messing with things.

Sounds kinky, where's my handbag?  :lol:

well thomas deleted all the comments on the news thing before i could even go look at it, and moved all his comments to the forum thread about it.
He keeps leaving these shitty ass comments basically telling people if they post anything negative it will be deleted again--telling people theyve been warned for going OT when all they were talking about was the new "changes". I guess on-topic means asskissing to him. Anyways...then he says that if alot of people complain then they'll know somethings wrong and needs fixing.

wtf? "tell us you dont like it and we will delete your comment, and if we delete alot of comments we'll think about maybe fixing something"

edited to make more sense

I know. He can't take criticism. He must have low self-esteem.  :lol:

Yeah, the comments from the news article got nuked and he didn't bother including any of them in the new thread, as certain posters pointed out. And they pointed out it was improper of him and then he returned fire with a threat and deleted posts. Jerk.

Yeah, complain and we'll delete your post. Oh, but if our FAs bitch about something we'll listen and change the site accordingly, even if only one person bitches. If they're high enough, he'll jump.

I was "lucky" enough to be part of the initial attack when the new article came out so I got to read all the good stuff. Valid concerns. The changes aren't fair nor do I think they will even the playing field as the FAs decided to pipe in and state. Yeah, you guessed it, Windkeeper had to say her piece.

It's a vertical hill I presume.  :lol:
TSR is a time bomb just waiting to go off.

Thomas is a time bomb waiting to go off. He's already gone off. Windkeeper has gone off. And now this "news" thing and new thread for the bullshit is causing more FAs to go off, and some SAs.

Odd though, I was a silver award holder prior to this and now I've been wiped from the face of the map. I'm not anywhere to be found on any of the creator lists. Although, I can't say I really want to be on any of Thomas's lists. But still, a silver to nothing?

Actually, you can tell PMBD is making an impact because at least one of the comments in the batch that was deleted went something like... "as long as we're copying MTS2 why don't you make everything free". I'm assuming that poster is no longer alive.

im still slowly getting through that thread over there...why is it on-topic to kiss the asses of the people who posted in the thread (windkeeper, cyclonesue, etc) but off-topic to say you don't like the new changes (or that the changes are favoring quantity over quality)?  :roll:
i'm sorry i missed the "copying mts2" post....because it seems like thats what they ARE doing, well, excluding the whole paying for items thing (Oh and paying creators thing).

Oooohhh, you noticed that too. Yeah, I'm ready to puke reading it now. It's going nuts but it really is that. Kiss the asses of TSR admin and the FAs and you'll live. Tell Thomas what you really think of his grand plan and you get nuked. Mmmm... sort of reminds you of communism.

How long do you think that comment will stay up? lol

I bet it's nuked already.  :lol:  I read it though. Thomas has already threatened that poster a couple times. I imagine sooner or later they'll disappear.

I have to admit though, from a creator standpoint. I've lost my interest as well. This may have just been the straw that broke the llama's back.

This just gets more and more ridiculous. Fuck's sake...

Also



What an INCREDIBLY condescending fucktard. My god, if that was me who he'd said that to...God, I would so be banned from there right now.

oh yeah those thanks really are going to console them after losing their awards.
thanks are supposed to be better than ratings and almost as rewarding as an actual award, yet he has made it so that people GET kudos for GIVING thanks...so people will just randomly thank people in order to get kudos, oh yeah thats soooooo much better than the ratings system right? either way people are going to abuse it just to raise their own point scores.
As long as people get points for doing shit on tsr, the system is fucked. No matter what changes they make....its like the benes bullshit on the exchange.  A neon-painted tshirt gets 200 thanks not because its a wonderful tshirt but because people wanted the kudos points

and i just noticed (i looked at my damn kudos score to see why it was suddenly big) someone bookmarked me as an artist yet ive only uploaded one thing and it was forever ago...what the hell? do they get points for bookmarking people too?

He's an asshole, why would anyone want to stay there after the way he talks to them like they're annoying worthless pieces of shit.

I meant the sort of timebomb where the whole site explodes into little pieces and we all gather round and party with rum... or something.  :lol:
Man i'm hope i'm there to see that when and if it happens. It'll be interesting.  :twisted:


is this a 'you don't use tsr, tsr uses you' joke time?  :D

Hey, that's good! Yes. Yes it is.  :lol:

I hear you on the timebomb thing. I'm sure I'll be there when it happens. I wouldn't want to miss it for the world. You can just feel the angst growing.

I'm having a hard time keeping my mouth shut in that thread. I'll get killed if I say what I really think and then I won't be able to go on and piss certain people off anymore.  :P

I see the abuse of thank yous coming. Like a hurricane. God, I remember so many "comments" I've gotten on my stuff that were lame, lame, lame. I almost replied back just to say "you just want kudos you little fucker". BUT I didn't.

Let people do stuff out of the goodness of their own heart. Then they'll mean it. Expect nothing in return. But, Thomas isn't honest so how can he expect his members to be honest?

and what i don't get is why paying members are putting up with the ads?!

If and when it 'splodes, a little bonfire dance would be fun. But don't hold your breath. There are big bucks involved and many people would sell their souls for money. *coughcarlaniven,retailsims,etc.cough*

Edited for surprisingly poor spelling.

Aw jeez, you think Tom will buy out Carla? Ew. That would just add another heap of shit to the site.

Ya know, it's not a bonfire unless you can see if from space! I think TSR going splodey would qualify as that.  :wink:

Hey, here's another goody from that thread:

by AmberDiceless

Would it be possible to keep track of how many total thanks and/or recommendations we've received somewhere so we can see it at a glance?

Also, I have to ask, is rating by number of downloads really going to be that much more accurate than the five-star system? Granted, it won't be possible to downrate someone maliciously, but won't creators who take artful screenshots or who have many friends they can recruit to download their items now have an unfair advantage?

And isn't there anything you can do to compensate creators who have just lost their award status because of the changes? An honorable mention, something? I won't say it's devastating to have it taken away, but it's certainly discouraging. Seems like every new change that's come along recently has taken something else away from the non-FA's or added questionable value to the site at best, and cumulatively it's becoming kind of a bummer.

I echo that bummer Amber. I really do.

Just more proof that paysites ARE evil and MUST be destroyed. Although I really didn't expect the owners of said sites to be so self destructive.  :lol:

oh that is fan-fucking-tastic :lol:
i love it

edited to sound less sheepish lol

I notice that Thomas has made mention of TSR Ambassadors. I wonder if that is why Cyclonesue was seen spamming the S2C forum with her shit, complete with pictures. Or why Windkeeper felt it necessary to announce on behalf of TSR that subs are dropping.

WELCOME, TSR PIMPS! WE ARE LAUGHING AND SPITTING IN YOUR FACES!

Oh dear...  I have bought a family pack of peppermints now to combat my increasing nausea spells.

Surelyfunke - LOVE the huge post.

I've been back on TSR this morning checking on "the thread". God, it's going crazy and the admin and FAs are still spreading warm, fuzzy bullshit and belittling the "little" people. If they got knocked off their FA highhorse because of the new system they'd be pissed too, but it doesn't effect them. Bah, stating we all start from zero and they lost their gold cups too, whatever. They're FAs, they'll have it all back in a day. I don't have any sympathy for those skanks. Their shit doesn't stink over at TSR and they get whatever they want. It's obvious now that it was all the FAs bitching about the downraters and wanted a new system put in. What? Can't take the heat of someone not liking your shit creations? Perhaps they really are shit, ever think of that?

Yeah, TSR Ambassadors. I think we already know who those will be. Jesus.

Not quite. Thomas only listens to his pet FAs, the ones who make the most meshes. The rest of them he treats as shittily as he treats everyone else who doesn't kiss his ass.  :x

As for already knowing the ambassadors? I'm sure it will be the little group of Thomas' moneymakers, too.  :roll:

Exactly. Ass kissers.

FA or no FA, if he treated me like that I'd be out of there. Nobody needs to put up with that shit.

TSR Must Be Destroyed makes me happy. In My Pants.

Nothing is stopping you now from painting and sewing. You can stop creating for them whenever you want. I hate to see people be sims slaves. Really, if you want to have a richer life, live it. Don't be so involved in the sims community. Don't create. Don't make people happy. Make yourself happy. You're under no obligation to create for us or anyone else.

It's one thing to work for Maxis and do it because it's your job. Heck, I think Maxis should wake up and hire some FAs from TSR. The content would be better. But to do it for a site that's making money off it beyond covering expenses and one that isn't very appreciative of the underlings just doesn't sit well with the simming community.

TSR will only go under if TSR does it itself or EA/Maxis goes after them.

Nope, but we are here because TSR has been nasty to some of us and yes, not all FAs are bad and not all FA creations are bad. We know that. But, that does seem to be who gets favored over there and the new changes reflect that.

I'm glad to hear you haven't agreed with everything that's gone on over there recently. But some FAs that don't agree with admin should speak up in the forum as well. If you really feel that way. Instead there's the filtered version of the US vs THEM.

Just the fact that you can't control what TSR does is enough to leave. It's OK. I have to say, the recent changes on TSR are what killed my fun. Really. Just like what finding this site did to you. I no longer have ambition to create nor to share my stuff any more. I was no superior creator but I did it for fun. I enjoyed it and wanted to share so people that don't create could have it, if they wanted it. Now I feel pretty worthless over there and I guess I'll just keep my creations to myself now rather than give TSR free reign on everything.

You know you do good stuff. I like it. I got it from TSR and paid for it to boot with a sub. I used to believe in TSR but not now. It's gone too far and it's not as "good" as it was. It makes me sad really. It was a good site. I would think better of FAs if I saw some leave because they did not agree to what has been going on. Have your own site done, get with a buddy, do something about it. Or, walk away.

As a person who creates (or created) TSR hurt me a lot and I was just a little person. I think they've hurt too many and it needs to stop, but since they won't go away, the creators need to leave. Sooner or later the bully won't have anyone to bully anymore.

Maxis is looking at their bottom line, not TSR's. Why not recruit? Pull it away from TSR and have it for themselves. It would only make their game better.

If what random people say on the Internet bothers you that much, you probably need to grow a thicker skin. The fact of the matter is that if you are associated with something that the people speaking don't like, you are going to be painted in a similarly negative light. If it's not true, why does what they say bother you? If it is true, maybe they have a point.


Have you considered simply defecting? The Fatheaded One is working on opening a site for hosting the works of those who defect. We'll have reports on that within a week.

What an excellent idea! I don't suppose the "little guys" get to defect too? Just FAs and SAs?

I say stand up and be heard. If they don't like it, fine. You can find a place elsewhere and feel better about yourself to boot.

Oh, that first part you just added. I think you said it rather nicely.

Maybe I missed it, but I see lots of criticism of TSR and how Thomas runs it, but I haven't seen a lot of criticism of the FA's work, well OK, Chaz, but please...

I remember when you used to post at MTS2. That's really good stuff I still use in my game.

I think most everyone thinks TSR is rather a cancer living off talented people like you, buying up free sites and claiming complete rights to all their work.

At least that's how I look at it.

Y'know, I'm a paying TSR member, and you're one of the main reasons I'm willing to shell out the $49.95 a year for a sub (because I'm a complete sucker for retro stuff, having an entire '50s hood), but I call bullshit on this.

What part of creating do you find fun? Obsessing over a mesh/texture, tweaking it to get it "just right"? Filesharing in no way makes that less fun, because it doesn't even affect it. Having a community of people who like your stuff / make similar stuff / post recolors of and do neat things with your meshes? You could maybe argue that filesharing makes it less likely for people to give the thanks and the warm-fuzzies, but there are plenty of people who pay for site subscriptions (like yours truly) who shun any kind of interaction at all, and probably plenty of people who aren't willing or able to pay for a sub to TSR who would happily give you the warm fuzzies if they could (say, if you stuck all your stuff on MTS2, instead.)

Really, the only aspect of being a paysite creator filesharing interferes with is YOU MAKING MONEY, and while I'm sure that's a sweet bonus when you can pull it off, I object to the notion that counts as "fun".

If you want to argue that PSMBD is ruining your PROFITS, okay, sure, but at least be honest about that.



Then post all your stuff to MTS2, which does.

EDIT: And because I realize that I probably sound slightly bitchier than I intend, I'd like to point out that I really do adore your stuff and think you're one of the better FAs on TSR, and I would be bummed if you stopped creating. Still, if you'd rather spend your time sewing or crafting or whatnot, especially if creating really isn't fun for you anymore, go for it. Don't torture yourself doing something that's not fun for you anymore, especially for a site that seems to treat people as badly as TSR.

well said momoryde.

I love making content too.  Lots of people do.. and lots of people manage to make content without asking for anything in return.  I dont charge because it makes me feel really warm and fuzzy every time I see a sim photo with something I made in it :)  Seeing that people enjoy my work enough to show it off it payment enough.

*end mushy-gushy rant.

Standing up and being heard is what this place is all about, after all. The fact of the matter is that the sims filesharing community has been around as long paysites have. It has largely carried on underground, in relative silence.

BUT I REFUSE TO BE SILENT! Paysites must be destroyed!

That's right, none of the TSR FAs need to be posting their stuff to TSR.  The enjoyment they get from creating and sharing need not be affected by the presence or absence of that site - still less if it simply went voluntary donation like MTS2.

Edit:  Why does someone always interrupt just as I am about to post - now no one knows who I am saying that's right to :P

You know what stole my fun?  Knowing now, that because I chose to "donate" to pay sites, that their ultimate greed means my home address and home phone number might be posted on any number of boards attempting to stop filesharing.  Knowing that TSR was involved. And I didn't even share any files.

My loss of fun trumps yours.  At least your loss won't possibly have some nutjob show up on your doorstep or calling your house.  Your loss just means you move on to other fun hobbies - that and that TSR will continue to profit from your work long after you've left them.

On the other hand Pescado, what if all the paysites will be destroyed... we won't have all the nice content.. sure there are a few free creators.. but the best ones are pay...

Well be cutting our own fingers there.

Theres nothing wrong in sharing with other people. But sharing can indeed go wrong. On the other hand... I have subbed more than ever on pay sites, so what excactly is your point?

Wait, so uploading at a place like MTS2 is less fun than uploading at TSR? The only difference I can discern is the money - hmm, maybe that's what makes it more "fun". :roll:

Actually, a lot of the "best ones" are free, or were free until they got greedy. How many times have you heard, "oh, I love so-and-so's set, I had them from when they were on MTS2... she's gone pay now, though."

Effectively ALL of the worthwhile modders - including Pescado himself - are free.



Except that Pescado himself doesn't actually use any custom content except his own hacks, as far as I recall.

Still, don't drink the damn Kool-Aid. I think most paysite creators charge because there's a market for their stuff, not because they wouldn't do it if there wasn't.



The point is, some people who sub to paysites want to share, and Pescado is enabling it because he doesn't like paysites, and also because this is doubtless an amusing spectacle to him.

A 'few'. How many people have uploaded to MTS2? How many people have free sites?

How many pay hairs do you know of that animate as well as Maxis hair? I don't know of any, myself, but I do know of some free ones that do, and have nicer textures - made by Nouk. The vast majority of my downloaded clothes are from free sites (Eyecandy, Fanseelamb, Parsimonious, SageSims, and Mermaid Cove), because the skinning is better, with proper shading, texturing, seam matching, and not relying on bump maps and photoskinning to do all of the work. Their work integrates better with the look of the game without being as plastic as most Maxis textures.

Try again.

What absolute poppycock!  Do you only know a few sites or something?

Caedre, I sincerely hope it's a joke.

I'm playing the sims from the very beginning, and the only subscription I have had in all these years is an actual TSR (sigh). The only pay files I use in my game are Sunair's hair, though.
No other pay files, neither pay-shared-for-free: except Sunair stuff, all and only officially free stuff, and I don't feel like my game is ugly looking without them.

I'm inclined to think joking.

Since I've decided to be organized with my bookmarks, my Free Sims Sites folder is by far the largest, and at least 70% of the stuff on the sites there are make of goodquality and win...

Pure and utter balderdash. Have you been smoking some of that happy weed?


I'd cancel that fast if I were you. It looks like TSR is about to start selling out your personal info.

Amen to that, Pariland. That's what killed my fun, too, and any doubt I may have had about the paysite vs filesharing war. And it woke me up in a very big way: I'm much more careful on the internet now. I don't even consider being so free with my money or information. The fact of the matter is, we have no control of where it ends up when dealing with small sites run by people we don't know. I feel better off just dealing with very large, reputable sites of real businesses, and to hell with the greedy people in the sims community. Enough is enough.

Sharing personal information and banning subscribers based on hearsay should be the death of TSR. At the very least it will be the death of TSR's reputation.

Saying things like if paysites disapear all the good creators will go with is nonsence,
it just means no one will get paid for sims creations anymore.
 
new creators come fourth everyday to give creations to everyone for free
and some of the best creators have never gone pay, Imagine if you had to pay for Quaxis simpe? or if Numenors modding were pay? but they were not and never have been and they do it all for the love of the challenge and simmers.

Is this suppose to make you a victim or make us pity your position? Didn't you choose to be under Tom's ironfist and profitable contract? Last I heard an FA has accepted his terms via agreement of giving away your 'fun for free' in order to make profit for TSR. So long as you are an FA creating for Sims 2 for the sole purpose of profit I have no pity for someone that sells their digital work alike a dirty whore selling sex in the redlight district.



Yet here you are judging PMBD's work. How hypocritical...



Yes that's true. They have contacted Windkeeper about a job from what I have heard on the forums. No they have no problem with FA's. We are talking about people that sold their ~fun~  to greed. You're an FA and should know this already. EA Games has never had a problem with people with that type of mentality.

As for making a mountain out of a molehill I would say "Look who's talking" as you are here making a mountain of PMBD sharing your work for free when you want to sell it for sheer profit.  :roll:

If I were good enough at creating content that some site chose to host it for me, for free, while giving me credit for it, I'd be very happy. It's flattering. It would add to my "fun", as it would be an ego boost.

The only thing I can think of that could possibly interfere with that is money. Money + game mods = total suckage. If you're not having fun, don't create any more. If you're only doing it for the money, STOP PLEASE.

It was a 6 months sub (sigh) and it's about to expire.
As a side thought, I almost hope they will report me to the police, somehow, if they think I'm a legal-rights-stealer. They may do it, in Italy an official report is all what you need, to deal with any copyright infringement suspect.
In this would happens, a judgement court will have to officially state about EA/creators/TSR copyrights.

If a creator is chosen as an FA, they get 'paid' but they also get free access to the stuff on the site, right?

I can't fault any of the FAs for 'selling out'--they found a way to get free stuff and some money, so what? Who wouldn't? Now we have this site and SFV, but we haven't always had these. Who wouldn't want the access to the goodies??

Those of you faulting FAs for 'selling out' are being self righteous. I am pretty sure that is an ajdective that belongs to the enemy, paysites.

I also know that some of the FAs, maybe all? Have and do give out their stuff on the sly, unknown to TSR powers that be, even to simmers they don't even know, just cuz a simmer said something nice about the FA's stuff!

How do I know this? I was on the receiving end once.

TSR subscriptions never expire. You have to manually kill them from Paypal. See the announcement in the booty updates about how to do this. Don't wait until it's too late. Kill it now, lest ye be out some more money to those thieves.

I wouldn't do it. If following one's own moral code is "self-righteous", then "self-righteous" I am.

Sorry I wasn't clear enough; actually I tried, but discovered that is a bit different: a 6 month sub, like mine, is not considered a "subscription" by paypal, but a one-time "payment". I have nothing to cancel, indeed, in my Paypal's pages.

Anyway, I checked also all the TSR FAQ's and stuff, to better understand, and found out this:



This seems true. Well, almost I hope it is :/, but from the PayPal's side there is nothing I can do.

I canceled my subscription. Yay for pmbd!!!  :twisted:

So they gave you a bone and you are defending them? How disgustingly sweet.



Yes, yes I am. What's your point?

Selling custom content when it should be distributed for free is wrong. There is no excuse for it.

Well I hope Windkeeper gets that job.  It will mean we get her windows bundled into the game at no further cost!

Maybe this *is* Maxis's way of trying to stop paysites.  With Windkeeper off TSR they only really have Cyclone Sue as their unique selling point.

Not sweet. I'm far far from sweet. But thanks anyway.

Defending them? Nope. I see no reason they need defending. Just trying to give you a WHOLE picture to make judgement on. You'd rather be ignorant? OK, next time I'll stay quiet. You wanna be self righteous? OK with me. You go you pirate you.

I checked out Shannanigan's stuff over at TSR. I can't imagine why someone with that much talent settles for being one of Thomas's bitches. :shock: Her stuff is well made and unique, but as long as it remains hidden in TSR's huge pile of crap, not many simmers get to enjoy it. If she could get over not getting money for her creations, she could easilly have quite a following.

Mm-hmm. Like I said, she's one of the main reasons I'm willing to shell out for a TSR subscription - or was, their new policy on personal information sharing is making me reconsider.

The sucky thing about TSR, if you're someone like me who's way more into objects/furniture and Build Mode stuff than silly BodyShop crap, is that they have a handful of artists who are actually fantastically good at making stuff, and do it in unique personal styles that you can't really find replacements for anywhere else: Windkeeper (who, granted, is mostly just doing Maxis style stuff, but is damn good at it), Cashcraft, NoFrills, Shannanigan, DOT, etc etc. Even some of the SAs, like MsBarrows - I honestly don't know why SHE isn't an FA and some of the no-talents hacks they have are. They also have some retardedly good builders, like Tiko.

And yet, aside from Windkeeper and Sunair, who gets the most fellating and snuggly-fuzzies from the sheeps, and who clogs up the "Coming Soon" bar? The barbie-doll "Sim coutiers". Bah. I wish the FAs and SAs who made good STUFF (who, suprise suprise, seem to be some of the saner ones) would ditch TSR and set up their own site. Hell, I'd be willing to "donate" more just to see it happen.

Possibly been offered it but didn't like the lock-in clauses?

Ms Barrows is a retired artist. Her new stuff is free, but not the old. I have actually been wondering whether they pay her for writing her stories to keep the sheep coming back. They're really well written and she has an impressive hit rate on her Soup legacy. She possibly doesn't deserve such suspicion, but Thomas does. I first wondered this before I discovered she was an RA, and depending on her reasons for retiring it may not be a possibility. Has anyone heard of this happening?

I'm only interested in their medieval stuff.


Dragon

You know, I'm one of those stupid people that know of this place and still sub to some sites. I like to donate to high-quality sites that give enough free stuff. I don't know why, but it makes me feel good. I'm not that stupid that I think it'll actually help them pay for bandwith, I have my own site and it's totally free so I know what it costs. It's just... I like to do the right thing once and awhile, thank people for the great stuff they make for me to put in my game and if it costs me a couple of bucks, then so be it.
I was thinking of getting a sub at TSR next month, just for he sake of supporting them. Because of this post, I know for sure I'll never support THAT site in my life. I have some free incentives left, and this place ofcourse  :lol:
I just can't believe their greediness, it's like they have a wallet with a big hole in it (reminds me of my ex). I wonder, when I donate to ATS, Holy Simoly, or even some more dubieus sites like 4ESF and Reflex, I know those people are buying dvd's and clothes and other stuff with my (and your) money, but that Thomas guy must have gotten himself some BMW cabrio's with that kind of businness.
I know I'm ranting here, so I'll just get to the point. I've read the comments at Windkeepers blog, and everyone just seems to think that if you're able to have a great computer, an internet connection and all of the ep's, you should be able to pay whatever TSR wants you to just because they have a few good creators that are stupid enough to put their shit there instead of a free site (like MTS, Yahoo Groups, whatever)?
What about the teenagers? Do they have to ask their parents money for a 'great new hair' for their sims? And the people that actually have to work hard for their money, struggle with their bills and have some mouths to feed? Do they have to say to their children: sorry honey, no dinner tonight, mommy has to buy a new bedroomset for Freakin' Bella Goth?
This just makes me sick. Sorry for making this post so long but I had to get it off my chest once. I'm sure none of you guys will actually read it, but hell, for as long as I live, I will never give half a penny to damn TSR!

I'm not buying anything from them. I've olny bought from one site since I've started playing sims 2 and that was from Sims Connection and only because they had some medieval objects I wanted real bad.  And the price wasn't bad. 5.00 for a month so i just went through and downloaded what I wanted.  But, I won't do it again.  Because I feel they don't have the right to sell copyrighted cc and then tell me what I can and can not do with it.  Nope, don't think so.

Dragon

You're quite welcome. :)



It's amazing that you know how to type but seem incapable of reading. Do go back and re-read my original response to Shannigan. I'm sure you'll see that I have a clear view of the ~whole~ picture.  :roll:

The fact remains is that TSR sucks for various reasons. Alike JustMe I will never give my money to them.

that was part of her response to a pm i sent her awhile back. when i saw your post it reminded me of what she'd said.
she is a select artist according to her profile (http://www.thesimsresource.com/artists/MsBarrows/). Where did you see the retired artist thing?

I agree with you but i think i'd rather see her and the other talented ones get their own sites (or one collective site away from tsr).

I don't remember where I found it but it was only a couple of weeks ago. I am looking now and don't see it. She only has a handful of subscriber content, a few houses (with Windkeeper and Cyclonesue stuff) and a couple of sets she made.
I am sure I saw it, but have no idea where.
*wonders where brain has been*

Hey Captain! I'll back you up! I saw it too but I read it in the Retired Artists list. Did Thomas kill that too with the new setup? I haven't looked for awhile. I remember because I got some curtains or something from her that did the match the bedding thing link and went to look into her. Then I found her on the retired list when she wasn't on the others.

Then I read some of her Soup Legacy and wondered why be so active when you're a retired artist. I would've thought if you retired you'd be gone because you lost interest. But now she has returned as a select artist? Coming out of retirement?

I like some of her stuff.

Here's the Retired Artists list where I found her, but she's not on it now because she's gone SA.

Our Retired Sims 2 Artists
 
BetterbeSim | Big Bad Shar | Bitzybus | cemre | c_literati | Dgandy | Dincer Hepguler | dotcombuilder | Fionaazreal | Fionn | GS Emilie | JewelRolls | MissyZ | red1060 | Reflexionistin | Shannara_Simfashion | Shoukeir | SolanderCGN | stoked4sims | Toddfx |

Here's the Select Artist list.

Our Select Sims Artists
 
ahthan | aikea_guinea | atwa | bluesims | clcny20 | confide | darqstar | dinad2610 | Distant-Eyes | EarthGoddess54 | Fairysunlight | Fresh-prince | galilea | Gamerg | GloryBe | H.Lin | hagerks2 | hatshepsut | Helaene | Henwen | jeni | Jubilant | JulietteRose | Lady Darkfire | lliella | maylynn55 | minicart | MsBarrows | nablanabla | nicwear | Nouknoukie | RICCI2882 | s00z | Sasetka | Seomi | sgoobysnacks | simfantastic2 | SimsLvrGrl2 | sim_man123 | SpringwolfDecor | Tabbylou | AaR Challenge | wildstar24 | Wolfsim68 | zvaella |

I haven't been around much lately because I've been without electricity, heat, cable, Internet and phone off-and-on for several days now, and I'm only hoping that everything is working tonight when I go home.  Of course, they're predicting another huge windstorm tonight/tomorrow so it may all go down the crapper again.

I posted, in my thread here, "TSR IS A SUCK-ASS SUCKY WEBSITE," the offer for any TSR artist to defect and I would possibly host or help host you.  I did not specify select or featured artists.  Of course, if your work is crap, I probably won't choose to host you but until you contact me, you never know, do you? :P  If you want to join us, let me know.  I will be setting it up probably in the New Year, hopefully as soon as I'm able to stay online for any length of time here.

Shannanigan, if you want to join our free site and have your creations be free for everyone, with MORE CONTROL over your own work, you're more than welcome to contact me.  I love your stuff.  I have nothing bad to say about any featured artist, with possibly the exception of Windkeeper because she was involved in the nefarious dealings of revealing donators' private information.

Edit:  And I pretty much agree with almost everything on page 6 of this thread. :P

Another black mark against windkeeper then.  I am disappointed.

I'm working on my own site now. Someday it will be up and running. I'll throw my stuff on there. But... some other creators out there might need some help. I was just curious.

 :shock: I'm shocked about Windkeeper.

Ya gotta watch those quiet types.  :wink: I think she's got a good cover going. She looks all nice and caring and makes great stuff, but then her alter ego comes out and says, "Show me the money!"

I'd like her to go work for Maxis. The pay has got to be better and heck, she'd probably get benefits too.  :lol:

Yes Mac, I think you're right!
So that's seems to be true about Maxis in Windkeeper's case.
I'm still frustrated somehow about her. But sure money is the one and only god in the 21th century.

Thats too bad about windkeeper.

I knew her back when she was still dolling.  Yeah, making pixel stuff for free just because its pretty and fun to do.  I believe her site was called "Random Doodles" and had awesome bases.

Then she left, quit dolling totally, to go work for TSR apparently.  I believe there was some "Its just not fun anymore, I'm doing something else now." BS on her website that was taken down.  She did put it back up for the bases on another server I think.  

So I'm not really that surprised that she's selling people out now.  She dropped dolling like a hot potato...not profitable enough for her I guess.  If its the same artist I'm thinking of.  I'm pretty sure it is.

Almost everyone here is not paying them; that's why they're pissed off.  :lol:

Grizzelda, welcome aboard, you are one of the few paysite creators to show their face, and not talk shit.

Some people give money to paysites because they know no different.  They don't know about the EULA terms, they don't know paysites are  breaking EA's terms.

When I first subbed to TSR, I didn't have the information that is now available.  I feel cheated by TSR because of this.  They were the only site I ever paid any money to.  

It is pretty much a given that they are profiting, I hate to think that I have helped them to pay for their houses, cars, takeaways, etc.  

All pay/donation sites should be accountable.  There should be a public record of their accounts.

The fact that TSR charges VAT, proves that they are commercial.

Oh, have you thought about joining in on the Poser Initiative, over at ModtheSims?

A lot of community and team spirit is showing up.  A refreshing change in the Sims community at the moment.

Edit:  To delete the word possibly.  Thanks for pointing that out.

A quick point:



They aren't "possibly" breaking the terms, they are breaking them.

I don't know enough about TSR internal politics to know who gets what share of the profits, but I am not naive enough to assume all FAs get a large chunk. I've been assuming that a large percentage of FAs over at TSR are in it for the prestige and fanbase. Not all of the FAs are as nasty and mean as Chaz, after all.

What disgusts me about TSR is not the FAs or whether they get a share of the cash, it's the fact that the site owners are raking in the profit by selling the work of others. I'm sure FAs disagree with me, but I see this as Thomas taking advantage in the dirtiest of ways. To compare it to something, it would be like Delphy charging $8 a month for access to the MTS2 downloads, then laughing all the way to the bank.

So yeah, while I detest the way TSR operates and refuse on principal to have anything of mine posted there, I know the allure of having free, easy hosting snags a lot of creators. Its a pity too, because some of the FAs are easily some of the most amazing creators in the community.

I was downloading XM sims new hair, and saw that TSR had a google ad up

(http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r11/redisenchanted/ScreenShot005.jpg)

Guess they make enough money to have an advertising budget.  :roll: [/img]

Edited to add: I may have spoken too soon, Parsimonious, one of the greatest free sites around has one up too.

Sites featuring advertising banners can very likely take in enough money to remain profitable simply because the cost of the actual hosting is, as I have proven, peanuts. If a site can take in maybe $20 a month from ad revenue, and this is probably a very low figure, they are making a profit off this.

I don't really see anything wrong with this, though. It's not coming out of my pocket. I just block all the ads anyway, not like I'd ever buy any of that shit.

Furryfox rocks on this. Blocking ads is a godsend.

Knowing what I know about Google Adsense and their rules, and knowing what I know about some of the supposedly kid-friendly content that is on TSR, I'm kind of surprised they've managed to keep the Google ads on their own site.  

As for the amount it costs them to have a Google Adwords ad of their own, that only depends on how much it gets clicked compared to how many of those clickers either turn into paying customers, or generate some money for the site by clicking on the google ads or other ads there.

Edited to add: If anyone has a sims2 site with google ads on it, hopefully they realize that they CAN block TSR's (or any other site's) ads from showing on their own site.  They may not want to--the TSR ads might pay well heh, but I thought I'd point out that they CAN choose to do so if they wanna.

On most small sites, Google adds pay out squat. I've tried it, and given the choice, I'm better off with an add free site and accepting the occasional donations that come in than trying to make any kind of revenue from Google. Seriously, on one site I hosted, with a low to moderate amount of traffic, I generated a grand total of like fifty cents in a month. Funny enough though, I've noticed that on larger sites that can generate some sort of payout from Google, Google finds some "violation" of terms to shut them down. Basically, its something of a scam to get nearly free adverts on websites.

Just say no to Google Ads. All the smart kids have adblock anyway :P

Oooohhh, I hate annoying ads. Block em! Block EM! BLOCK EM!

Admittedly, people who wield adblockers probably don't represent the target audience for an ad anyway, given that they're likely fundamentally unwilling to consider the idea at all.

'In your face' advertizing pisses me off so much, such an annoying personal space invasion in an already stressful civilization barely worth living in, I make it a point to remember who/what the ads come from/are for and NEVER EVER buy their shit!

My one person sit down stike against that type of advertizing :)

grizzelda,

If TSR having more upload options tham MTS2 is a reason for you staying there, then I am more than willing to enhance MTS2s system where I can. :)

What are the TSR options for uploading?  I did it and I found it much worse than MTS2.

The math speaks for itself. Delphy claims about 0.07% donation rate. That means at least 700 subscribers per month out of TSR's 1 million, and this is a lowball figure: MTS2 doesn't require donations and people are not terribly compelled to give them, whereas you go nowhere on TSR and have no reason to even be there otherwise. At 700 subscribers per 2 months, $8.95 per cycle, TSR thus rakes in a yearly income of $37590/yr.

Operating costs, with intelligent hosting selection, are on the order of $100-$150 a year, which is how much it costs us to pirate all their shit and offer it free to the world.

Now, do you think 0.07% is a realistic subscribe rate given that paying is MANDATORY? And if not, how many orders of magnitude higher? 0.7%? 7%? The figure for 0.7% is $376K/yr. The figure for 7% is $3.76M/yr. Even the smallest and most lowly of these estimates is sadistically huge.

I'm guessing extra stuff like specifying number of bedrooms, lot sizes, type of clothing, and all that stuff. (Which I'll be rolling into the next major MTS2 update anyway)

That'd be good.

TSRs hosting costs are at least on par with MTS2s - probably a bit higher since they have (at last rememberance) 10 servers whereas MTS2 has 7 (if you include S2C).  They also pay people for managing the site and servers and coding and all that jazz.

Not to put a dampener on your "$150 a year" thing, but in all honestly, you really couldn't run a site the size of MTS2 or TSR on that kind of money since you'd be looking at 1) shared hosting and 2) not much bandwidth per month, which equals crappy performance and so on.  Remember that you don't have as many concurrent users download stuff as they (or I) do.  Any website provider who has a vast number of people downloading stuff concurrently is going to want to shift you onto dedicated boxes, which ups costs.

That said, they do have a lot of ads (they are *everywhere*) and a lot of "omg sign up now!!!" stuff, which is really annoying, so I'd say they are getting a lot more than you think.

Well, I have unlimited and run at 3 TB a month right now. You had, what, 12 TB a month and pay a bazillion times more than I do? "Dedicated" server runs at around $300 a month on a low end estimate. For the price of THAT, I could purchase 30 regular accounts! You're just not thinking outside of the box.


I still 3 TB a month, you have what, 12? 18? That's not a large enough difference that I can't buy myself out by splitting it across more servers. Like I said, you're just not thinking out of the box. You're not thinking like a cheap, miserly bastard. :P

Yeah but it's not about bandwidth at all Pescado.  It's about CPU load, database queries, server optimisations and just general concurrent users at any one time.

I bet if you checked the apache server-status you'd have hardly any usage there at all - for MTS2 it maxes out 200 MaxClients within about 20 seconds of starting the httpd processes.

Don't think about it in purely bandwidth terms - there are a lot of other reasons to have multiple servers.  Running MTS2 on a single server even with unlimited bandwidth would basically result in a completely unusable site and it'll kill the box.  I may not be as cheap as you, but I still do want to have a working website ;)

Regardless though, with optimisations and improvements you can cut down the number you need, and make it so that things run better, thus not needing to upgrade so much (ie pay more for more powerful machines, etc).  MTS2 has been very static in terms of servers for quite some time - the only main change to hardware has been for the fileserver for a disk upgrade, but otherwise it's all been software changes.  I daresay if I didn't do it myself (or, like other paysites, I *paid* somebody to do it), it'd cost a hell of a lot, so I suspect that this is, in part, where paysite owners spend some of thier gains.

Are you sure?   Seems a lot more than I would have guessed for this site.  I would be a bit skeptical if you can keep that up on the hosting plan you have without someone eventually hmming about it.

Delphy speaks the truth. I once had an inexplicably popular Sims site (in the days of the original game) and bandwith wasn't the problem at all. The amount of concurrent visitors, all asking for files puts load on the server. With 5000-odd (unique) visitors a day the site was getting at its peak, needless to say the load was tremendous. While the site was on shared hosting the chaps at the hosting company, a little bit taken-aback at the popularity of my silly little site actually disabled the other sites on the server once, just to see how much resorces my site would run off with :lol:
Part of my disgust for paysites comes from my experience, my dedicated server was $100 a month and I managed to keep the site free, for God's sake. Ad revenue alone more than flippin' covered it... :shock:

I smell bull shit! lol




Well, Delph the Dog, I don't see you coughing up any 'exact numbers'. Why not? Says to me JM is right yet again and you are lie lie lieing again.

I also see lots of 'Donate now' banners at MTS2, in the download threads.

So what ARE you saying here? Seems to me that what you are REALLY trying to say is 'Man, I'm cool, see how cool I am to join in here?'  Tell me I'm wrong in words I can't argue with?

That's because MTS2 runs bloatware forum technology. Had you selected software optimized for performance, you wouldn't have this problem: Forums are technology that's over 10 years old. I simply find it impossible to believe that a properly optimized forum can chew up computers many times more powerful than the computers of 10 years ago.

However, we run raw HTTP dumps. CPU load is practically nonexistent. According to serverside monitoring, the loadage caused by the actual usage here is nearly nil, and since I can buy the use a server for < $10/month, I just don't see the concern.

I smell bullshit too - but it's not coming from Delphi.

I try to avoid threads like these, other than to laugh at them - but there is only so much BS I can take.

You guys take yourselves so seriously, like you are on some kind of grand crusade, to save the world from ... er, something or other, I'm not sure quite what.

I do understand, I was 12 years old myself once.  But it helps to pick a valid crusade.

Protecting Maxis' EULA?  But Maxis not only knows about paysites, they don't just "turn a blind eye" to them, they actively support them - they have interviews with various pay site owners on their own site, invite them to get-togethers, do interviews on paysites themselves...

Nah, forget about that EULA crap, you're just making yourselves look like idiots.

You don't like paysites?  It's easy, just don't subscribe to 'em.

I think it's stupid to pay four times the cost of a pair of Wrangler Jeans just to have some designer's name on my ass - so, I just don't buy 'em.
It's that simple, and I can spend my "crusading" time on something more important...

Or, if you really think it's that important, just be honest about it - come right out and say it:  "I want this stuff, I don't want to have to pay for it, so I'll just steal it."  Real pirates didn't hide behind a bunch of bullshit, they just took what they wanted at the point of a sword.  Blackbeard never spoke the word "EULA" in his life.

And I can personally attest that the crap about the webhosting costs is pure BS.  I have had a small Sims site for several years, since back in the Sims1 days.  It is now on it's 4th webhosting service, having been kicked off the first three for using too much of the "unlimited bandwith" they offered.  And this is a small, insignificant site - with at most 1000 visitors a day, usually closer to 500, and average bandwith usage of 40G a month.  The present hosting service doesn't complain about it (not yet anyway) but it does cost a bit more than $200 per year - and it would cost even more if I want to increase the amount of storage space used for the site.  Maybe I could host it for less if I was knowledgeable about thi sort of stuff, if I had the time and money to set up my own server, etc...  But I don't, nor do most people.  

I could go on, I found a lot more BS floating around this site, but it's Christmas so I'm trying to be nice.

Have a Happy Holiday, everyone, and don't let me spoil your grand crusade by injecting a bit of truth into it.

BS yourself.

At Dreamhost, a fairly run of the mill hosting joint, for $120 a year you get 200GB storage (+1G each week) and 2TB transfer a month (+16G every week).

On the other hand, I know what Delphy's saying about hosting issues that are unrelated to bandwidth.  A friend of mine suddenly got tossed from his hosting last year because his forums were overloading the servers.  He moved to invision BB hosting and put the rest of the site elsewhere.

Also, anyone with half a brain can see why EA's straddling the fence at this point.  It makes them more $$ to turn their head.  They are actually trying to support pay sites like TSR and sharing whatever you want at the same time.  That doesn't change the fact that if you support creators' rights, you've got to support EA's creators' rights.

However, I have seen people put together "stuff packs" on their own.  They were free and offered for things like summer, Easter, or Halloween.  But I imagine the moment that someone made a pay stuff pack that could compete with EA's own would be the time someone got acted against for breaking the EULA.

Why don't you go read before jumping to conclusions? I doubt anyone here really takes themselves seriously.

YES, there are REAL reasons why paysites are wrong. illegal, morally reprehensible, greedy etc. And hell yes, we want the booty. Are you stupid?

BWAHAHAHA. 40GB a month. You got kicked off for 40 GB a month. We run 3 *TB* a month. Read 'em and weep.
(http://paysites.mustbedestroyed.org/crapola/3tb.jpg)
The ability to burn 40 GB is nothing compared to power of the Force.


$200/yr is high, but not on a completely different scale, and neither case involves setting up your own server. How much "storage space" were you thinking? 5 GB spaces can be had for $60/yr or even less, depending on how many nosy prying questions you want to deflect. All cases involve unlimited bandwidth. Stupidity and ignorance is not an excuse: If you're not willing to invest a few minutes to find some competitive pricing, you get ripped off. It's that simple. You don't have to be "knowledgeable" about this sort of stuff. You just have to CEASE BEING STUPID.

We're not the ones screaming about lawyers and the FBI coming to shut down the evil filesharing sites.  Check with LyricLee and Thomas on that one.



I don't steal anything, I pay for it.  It's my business whether I want to share it or not.



I don't know shit about setting up my own server, I simply did a bit of research any 11-year-old could do and found something I could afford that seemed reasonable.  I am with godaddy, and I have 250 GB per month bandwidth, for $40 year.  It's not as much as this site, but it'll do for my needs.  And that's the cheapest plan they have, if necessary, I can upgrade for more.

I don't know why, but I really expected better of Dr Pixel than to come in a spout the same tired old criticisms we've been hearing from the very start...I expected, I don't know, more research on his part, or...less "you are childish idiots, wasting your time" pokes, or.....something. :?

You shouldn't expect much from TSR people.. They're either getting heavily paid by TSR or complete gimps for giving all their creator rights to TSR to be heavily profited on.  In both cases the idea of free stuff either threatens their profits or make them look like idiots.  Theres no grand crusade against paysites here, just some people that want to take a shot at the scum of the community.

The odd thing about Dr. Pixel is that some of the stuff he offers on TSR as pay items he actually has on his own site for free. I'm not quite sure what that says about him and his viewpoint, but I'm still going to disagree with him not only about his position on this issue, but also the way he went about expressing it.

And one more time for your benefit, Dr. Pixel, a lot of the people frequenting this site are choosing not to subscribe at these sites and never had any intention to in any case. Why are you getting so upset?

Yeah it's coming from you.  :lol:



We don't intend to, hence "Paysites Must Be Destroyed", and notice it isn't "Paysites Must Be Kept Going".

I used to have respect for you, Dr P! But now I know better!

One more thing, you are made of bullshit and that is what you will always be made of.  :twisted:

Also:



Since when did Delphy become a Greek town?  :?

I dunno, I think he holds many secrets...;)

btw, happy birthday Denimjo.

Although I am not personally involved in the file transfers to or from this site, by personal choice, the fact remains that anyone who can copy EA's work and sell it against their explicit licence agreement is in no position to moan if someone copies the same work and gives it away.

Adding your own bit of mesh to the work you're stealing from EA doesn't make it yours to sell.

WE DO?! *looks around wildly*



The "I don't have an intelligent defense, but I'll pretend to have one and then drop it because you're all too stupid to follow it, haha" defense. I see.

You're smarter than this. Stop it.

I think Maxis have gone back to the mistake they almost rectified when they put Maxoid Tom out there into the world.  They are out of touch with the Sims community developments.   For example, when looking for SimCity sites, I found one major modding site and perhaps one other chat site.  City Life the same etc etc.    Maxis probably actively supported one large The Sims site plus one in each country in order to ensure there was a base for custom content to make the game more attractive to buy and continue playing.   Because they were anxious for the site to remain viable, they turned a blind eye to the charging system.

It's not even all that unfortunate for EA that there is all this hassle now, because it's a part of the game that political-type strategy people can play, and has probably caught up people who would have lost interest in the game by now just like being able to make CC has kept the interest of the creative types who might otherwise have stopped buying the game.

The old Hollywood adage applies - "There's no such thing as bad publicity".
EA rakes in the cash no matter what happens,

I suppose it never occurred to you that you are childish idiots?

Well, some people don't want to look at reality, do they?

I also see that no one has actually read the infamous EULA - if you really read it, it says nothing at all about making a profit from the content - it simply says you can't distribute it - period.  It is pretty much the standard sort of EULA that comes with any piece of software, from Windows right on down the line.

From that viewpoint, any and all user-created content is in violation, no matter if it is free or not.

And the old "I paid for it, I can share it if I want" excuse is pretty lame too.  That means it is OK to distribute mp3's, copys of Windows, Maya, Poser meshes and so on, right?  Is that what you are saying?

Distributing other people's work without their permission is stealing, no matter how you try to dress it up.

I am sorry but I don't think you are correct about this.  I have read it myself and my understanding is more in accordance with the PMBD interpretation.  Except the difference here is that I feel the images and meshes added to the EA content *are* the property of the artist (erm - or the *original* artist in the case of those stolen from the Poser people etc) and that is why I am not involved in the file sharing.  However, adding ones own content to a file already full of someone else's copyright content, does not mean you now own all the data in the entire file and can do what you like with it.   EA's intention behind allowing the engineering of their data was to promote *free* sharing of game-enhancing content.

Those people who wish to exchange their images and meshes for money should distribute those separately, along with instructions for how to import them into game files.

Call us what you will, at least we don't deceive people out of their money for buying used jockstraps.



Well, it means no one cares about the damn EULA, injustice here and there you shout but so far no one takes legal action for it, now that's reality for you, mister!



And selling "donation" packs while raking BIG money for bandwidth reasons are LYING, no matter how pitiful you plead. It's a blatant deception, too bad there are so many people out there who didn't bother to actually count the numbers.

And don't try to use any copyright permission reasons or those file sharing argument because the people who made windows, Maya, Poser, etc. cause they made the programs from SCRATCH. While a lot of paysite owner took other people's meshes, made their creations from Maxis bases and is making profit off it by deceiving about "donations" for bandwidth.

You can call us childish, idiots but in reality we're too smart to pay for things that are supposed to be free, we tried to be nice but then some "doctor" just came here and berating everyone, it's not a nice way to make someone see through YOUR perspective or understand it.

Um, it's more in the region of 200-500 sites on a shared hosting server (it can be as many as 1000) and these sites are all designated a percentage of the server's resources, whether they have people visiting them or not.

Dr Pixel has given his share of donation$ to the community.   I think it's all about acknowledgement.  Dr Pixel also made some nice pirate objects and clothes.  




(http://theblarneystone.org/PirateRadio/Big.jpg)

It's very disappointing, to me, read Dr. Pixel's posts, 'cause I used to look at him with respect and esteem, both for his skills and many of his other posts on different subjects.

It seems clear, to me, that your opinion on this matter cames from a very superficial reading of the core issue here on this board. I don't blame you for, because I'm fully aware that it's not easy to dig it out from all the forum content, and nobody may be feel guilt having not spent many hours reading all the forum.
And of course, we all - myself included - may be idiots or childish at full, or may be sometimes only, or joking, or else. You can not know for sure, if you don't inform you better.

Unfortunately, I'm not the most right person for the purpose of summarize and clarify the matter, in part also for my very poor skills in english writing. The best I can do for helping you to inform better, is to point you to this thread: http://forums.sims2community.com/showthread.php?t=30984.
It's long, either, but not so much as the full content of these boards. But it's very enlightening: it's on a neutral ground, and contains many points of view from both sides and from people not involved in the issue.

Take your time, read along, no need to hurry. I don't hope this may change your mind, of course, you may stand your ground and retain the same original opinion: what matters to me is that your opinion will be correctly - and better - informed, not else.

Karu, no one can justify selling *someone else's* property based on how much of their own they have given away free.

For some reason the mental image of purple faced CC creators angrily banging away on their keyboards in defence of their "intellectual property" amuses me greatly. Rant on dr. pixel.  :lol:

I was speculating on Dr Pixels point of view.

[1] Nice comeback, well done, fully in the spirit of debate there. "You are what I said you are, because I say so, and if you disagree, you're proving my point". Thank you for the patronizing. :)

[2] It states

It's the word 'noncommercial'. At the very much most lenient interpretation of the word noncommercial, it means you're not allowed to make profit from things you've made for The Sims. Commerce is accepting money for goods or services. Pure and simple. I think it's pretty damn clear, myself, but I'm notoriously stupid and sucky and now also childish...*shrugs*

LOL. How ironic!

I tend to stand back from quibblings over what EA's EULA means, for 2 reasons: a) I personally don't think it means very much, especially on the basis that it reads as a very ambiguous document, highly dependent on interpretation, and b) I don't need an EULA from EA to tell me that selling CC for money is wrong. Even if EA came down from their fence and said that it was OK for paysites to exist, I would probably still continue to pirate CC until I get that cease-or-desist order.  :lol:

Before I played the Sims 2, I played SimCity for years. There is CC in the SimCity community too. I get mine from Simtropolis, which is one of the largest CC sites and has a big forum too. The attitude of CC creators from Simtropolis essentially is like this:

"Oh, I spent days creating this enormous likeness of a great city building, and left my computer on OVERNIGHT to render it in my 3D program, but please, download my stuff, because it's COOL!"

Not once did I EVER hear anyone complain about not getting paid for spending 20+ hours rendering buildings on their machines, or whine about deserving any kind of compensation. People in the SC community WANT everyone to download their creations. I'm sure if someone decided they wanted to start charging for their downloads, people would come down on them and mock/smack the crap out of them for suggesting something so ludicrous and obviously disrespectful of the fans.

Such different responses from 2 franchises that operate under the EA umbrella!

When I started playing Sims 2, I learned about CC and went looking on Google Directory for some sites. I believe the first site I stumbled upon was WDS. My jaw DROPPED. I couldn't believe that not only were people CHARGING for something as miniscule as CLOTHING for Sim people, but they were expecting you to fork over amounts of money for a subscription to their site! In fact I was so shocked, I called my best friend who lives on the other side of the globe just to tell her. She is not a gamer by any means, and she also found it LUDICROUS that people were charging for 3rd party fan-created content. She is not a gamer but still understood how this was totally disrespectful to a community and a long-standing tradition of NOT screwing over your fellow community members by charging them for your creations.

And THIS is the biggest reason why I am totally against Paysites. I don't care what EA or its wishy-washy EULA has to say about Paysites. Charging for CC is WRONG, period. Nobody before The Sims were charging for content. Paysites are an aberration, not the norm. All those deluded people who think good CC would go away and die off if there were no Paysites need to take a look in OTHER gaming communities that have years and years of a non-paysite history, and know how wrong, misguided and brainwashed they are.

Actually I don't really care for Pixel's point. I don't see why you guys should and spend time arguing with him.

His stuff are not nice either.

TSR FAs are best downloaded and not seen or heard.

I counted the number of sites on this server. There were about 20 or 30, of which about 50% were uninhabited stubs consisting of a single front page peddling drugs and other dodgy products and services.

So this site fits right in, then? Rockin'!

Aww, that kind of attitude is exactly what I don't want to be associated with.   I'm not all touchy-feely-come-on-everyone-lets-get-to-hugging-liberal or anything, but I can't say that I agree with that statement, simply because it dehumanizes the creators.   If they want to talk they can (and should, regardless of how stupid they are/sound), it's simply your choice if you want to read or not :D

Dr. Pixel, the one person I had thought to be the most sane of the FA bunch. While a damn shame to see a prominent creator stoop to a grubworm's level is heartbreaking... At least now I have new respect for Grizzelda and NeptuneSuzy who share their creations off TSR for free.



Does this mean it doesn't apply to Dr.Pixel?  He yoinks car meshes from 3D sites that aren't suppose to be sold for commercial sites and converts them for The Sims 2 for profit.

I'd say Cyclonesue seems pretty sane. Whatever her reasons for selling out to TSR are, they're tempered by a pragmatic acceptance of reality.

I'll take your word on it. A few of the FA's mind's seem to float on idealistic reality that is firmly anchored in utter nonsense.

Here is what I object to about this site, and what prompted me to post in the first place.

I am the father of two kids, and I do not like sites that promote stealing, and even worse try to frame it as if they are doing something good.

You can bandy about all you like about the EULA and so on - but you admit, right there on the front page, that you are doing something wrong.  That whole bit about "you are here, wew are here" and how you aren't subject to US copyright laws is an open admission that you are violating them, isn't it?

BTW, the EULA, no matter what interpretation you care to make of it, is an agreement between the person who installs the software, and the creator/owner of the software.  If you think I (or anybody else) is in violation of the Maxis EULA then you can report it to Maxis - if they choose to do nothing about it, or openly support it themselves, that's the end of it.

So in short this is what I don't like about this site:

* Promotion of theft to kids as a way of solving a problem - that's the main one, I wouldn't have even bothered to post here if it wasn't for that.

* The thought-police attitude that seems to pervade this site, where many of you think you are the authorities on what people can and can't do with their Sims mods.

* The whole negativity thing - "Paysites must be destroyed" and all, you even have thre3ads here bashing Delphy and ModTheSims2 because they don't agree with your methods.  I can understand being against pay sites, but being against ModTheSims2?  That whole site exists to promote exactly what you claim to believe in.  Is it because they do it in a positive way that you object to?  I really don't get this part at all.

The rest of it I have no problem with, whether you like/hate/ignore paysites, whether you agree or disagree with me, whether you like me or my Sims2 items dosen't concern me in the least and I'm all for free speech.

Oh, get over it. It's not theft. Everything on this site in the booty was rightfully and legally purchased by someone here. Therefore it is there to do with as they please. Stop bitching and moaning and whining about how your hardwork has been stolen, because, as has been stated too many times to count here, whatever your trumped up excuse for creating content is, it boils down to whatever money you're getting from TSR. Otherwise you wouldn't give a damn. You are credited, no one's claiming your work as their own and if you were in it for the sole purpose of giving something to the community, we wouldn't be forced to listen to your incessant whining. Come back and debate with us when you're ready to admit that you're pissed about profit, not about your work or your kids. At least honesty would give us something to respect about you.

And I think the "bandying about" on the first page is to stop morons from throwing around needless empty threats to sue. Which is sad, because threats make for a very amusing read when Pescado posts them.

Dr Pixel, that last post was much more pleasant to read.  Your arguments there are much more reasonable.  

As a previous paying customer, and getting shoddy customer support, I am entitled to bitch and moan about the one paysite to which I have subbed.

A big percentage of the people who frequent here and add their comments, have had bad experiences with paysites.

This is a place to vent all the ill feelings we have,  we cannot go to the relevent sites, our comments and suggestions just get ignored.  So hopefully by having this site open, paysite owners may learn how to improve their services.

*I speak only for myself, and not on behalf of anybody else from this site.  

As Pescado said, negative comments are the most constructive.  Or, words to that effect.

Well I think deep down most people here including the ones running the place have an idea the exact rights and wrongs are questionable - why else does it have a pirate theme?

When you buy software (eg someone's new mesh - if it is new) you only buy a licence to use it as agreed, you don't buy the copyright.  That is how the purchase is understood, and not at all as if you had bought a chair from a furniture shop.

However, I don't see that the site is doing serious harm, it's more or less an extension of the game itself just the same as paysites are.  Anyone seriously doing it to keep themselves and their family alive has a worse problem than PMBD to worry about!

I credit this site with having been about the only thing that has managed to open up a proper debate about the issue.   Now some people who could barely afford to patronise paysites but thought it was normal now realise it doesn't need to be considered normal at all.   Previously, site owners all over the Sims-playing world seemed to be in a tacit agreement to never allow it to be discussed.

Here's what I admire about Dr. Pixel first:

He's been making great FREE stuff since sims 1

As far as I know, all his FA stuff at TSR is available elsewhere for free

He's the only creator I've noticed who actually credits non-sims sites for meshes.



It's not theft, everything has been paid for. Credit is fully given along with links back to the site. I'm a parent too. I think paysite owners give a very bad example to kids by doing something illegal, censoring speech, ripping off poser and other sites and providing shoddy workmanship and terrible service.



Completely wrong, anyone can post their thoughts here. This is the ONLY site with unfettered discussion of the issue, with no threat of banning over their heads. Even your first few rants were met with reasonable arguments and some mocking but not flaming.



Delphy is a bit late to the party. I think you'll find that people are at least grudgingly pleased with what he's doing now in regards to paysites. Don't forget, it was on his site that the super-secret-paysite-owners forum was set up to share paypal info of suspected file-sharers. Because I'm a parent too and have certain life experiences, I can't overlook his personal failings. A secondary issue is his lack of financial transparancy on income and expenses at MTS 2.

If this site didn't exist with it's in-your-face attitude, nothing would change in the larger sims community. People like Thomas at TSR are undermining the sense of community, and pimping creators for their own financial gain.

:lol:

I haven't so much as requested that my stuff here be removed, and I really don't care about getting credit for it either.

As for honesty, I suppose what you mean is since I bought the Sims2 game I can do whatever I want with it too, right?

Like post copies of it for people to download?

Or, I don't know, maybe make items for the game and then put them on a paysite?

No, honesty doesn't go over well at this site - it kinda defeats the whole purpose of it, ya know.

It might make you think about what you are doing, and that wouldn't be good would it?

I don't see that this latest post is much different than your first, pixel.

1. FILESHARING! Not theft.
No one is encouraging children to steal here. This site, at the least, is encoraging children AND adults to THINK on their own, take all the info and form their own opinion, instead of simply follow everything they are told. YOU mght wanna try that.....

2. 'Thought Police attitude'?? That's just funny.  :lol:  
Anyone that knows even a little bit about JM knows better than that. Everyone else here is entitled to their own opinions and attitudes, you too! Have your posts been deleted or modified? No. Is this thread still open even tho you are knocking JM? Yes. Rather a novelty in the sims community, but definitly a VERY GOOD thing!

3. 'Negativity' ?? Geez, can't you recognize fun for fun? Not everyhting has to be nicey nice and happy jam covered. It's way past time for the bulk of the world to get over what I call Zig Ziggler control methods!

And Inge: I don't see the Pirate theme as admitting any pirates here think even remotely that we are 'stealing' anything. The theme simply underlines how ludicrous the whole attitude of paysites really is.

Delphy was slammed for allowing personal information to be shared on his forum; my personal information.  Threads that were discussing his former real life umm...indiscretions were deleted.

He did, in fact, remove the forum that allowed for personal information to be shared.  And he's changed his tune re: paysites.  So, I'm fine with him now.

I personally paid for so much crap from paysites, and if I want to share it, that's my business.

Do you honestly think that you modifying game content = teams of people slaving away for months to create a game from scratch? B/c it's so not. This just gives a sense of the deluded ego that encourages the whole Sims 2 paysite epidemic.



They're getting bashed for censorship. Not b/c they don't agree. But b/c they censor like mad and prevent free discourse on the issue. And for sharing personal info. Or creating a forum to do so.



No. It's so touchy hosts don't cave to complaints. Plus it's cheaper apparently.



The same is true of this site. If you think this site's doing anything wrong, you can report it to Maxis, and if they choose to do nothing about it, that's the end of that, no?

So since we can both agree that this is a moot point, why not take your name calling and BS back to TSR? I'm sure the sheep there will be ready to bleat at every point you make.

I think if you were really concerned about your children, you wouldn't participate in a site that basically swindles money from unsuspecting people.  If you want to talk about morality, fix your own shortcomings first.  TSR is a cesspool of everything that's wrong with the Sims community right now, and as long as you're part of it, there's no moral highground for you to stand on.

So put up or shut up.

1) I personally don't give a fuck what you do with your crap.

2) If you want to post copies of the Sims 2 game, I really don't give a donkey's ass.

3) Shut up, and leave.

Sorry, he just makes me angry.

Ya know, dropping the arrogant, smarter than everyone else attitude might lead to a real discussion.  :roll:

Lol, that's what I was thinking.

 FYI, dr p, you aren't that smart, if you can't be open-minded, or accept the fact that you are wrong, you will end up like carla, a ranting cat lady man thing

I stand by Dr Pixel.  His comments pretty much sum up my thoughts.

You joined to make one comment that contributes nothing? :roll:

I wonder if it's another case of double/triple/whatever accounts. We seem to have had a lot of those lately.

It's a common thing I believe.  A sheep joins simply to bleet in perfect agreement with its master.

Sums up everything I wanted to say.

Yeah.  Anyone who wouldn't agree with you must be a sheep.

No. Passively nodding "I agree!" to everything - that is a sheep.

Sometimes I forget that there are "challenged" people in this world who find things difficult. If I had known, that this was lordrichter's case then I would have never responded to his first...erm... 'post'.

Care to elaborate on your reasoning behind this comment? I'm interested in knowing why you prefer that I remain "not seen or heard".....


 Thanks for the compliment.....



For the record, I have a free site (ts2creations) and I upload to mts2 and TSR (as an FA). I don't mind going out on a limb and saying that I'm not being paid any big bucks by TSR, LOL!  I think there is a false impression that all FA's get some big cache to post over there and that's just not true.  When I first started making Sims2 content over 2 years ago when the game came out I uploaded to TSR because their interface for submitting was very simple and they gave you a nice little profile page. At that time mts2 was young and harder to navigate. Over time I became an FA, and made friends at TSR, thus I'm still there.

I don't really know what to say about the whole paysite debate..... I have a Free Site and I (as well as Grizzelda) want everyone to share and recolor our meshes.... one thrill as a creator is to see my meshes recolored! I also love to see my creations all over! :) Everytime I see a screenie with one of my Medieval Hair or Gown creations I'm thrilled!  
I'm also at TSR as an FA. I just want to make it clear that I'm not there for the alleged big bucks....I'm there for the community of friends that I've had for years now.  I understand that my creations over there are Pay items but that's a compromise I make.

I find it a little disheartening that many veiws in this thread are harsh and one sided.  And there also seems to be a fair amount anger here.  It might be a good thing to remember that everyone is an individual and has different reasons for their actions. And nothing is as simple as being black and white

Also I can't understand any of the negative opinions made against mts2, Delphy is the single most influencial person in the Sims2 community when it comes to Free Content!  Without mts2, a Free site, we wouldn't have the support to make CC.

I'm also disheartened and surprised by some of the responses to DrPixel, first of all he owns a free site (Blarney Stone) and has been contributing to the Sims1/Sims2 community for many years. What I find interesting is that there are so few posters Thanking him for his FREE contributions. Not only is the majority of his custom content available free, but the advice on creating content that he has given to so many people in the community is also done freely, as well as sharing freely any new techniques etc that he has developed.


One last point and then everyone can get the rocks ready to throw at me, LOL!

Simply put...."Two wrongs don't make a right". I understand that you find Pay Sites to be wrong and bad for the gaming community in general. That may be true, but copying someone's file in order to share it is also wrong.  It's always going to be theft of intellectual property, that's just a fact.  Now I know there will be responses from some of you that say much of the bitmap in most files etc is either from a Maxis creation or photoskinned from another site etc. Sure, sometimes that's true,  but not always.  For instance, 90% of the skirts I use on my gowns is rendered from a digital picture of my livingroom....I cut/pasted/etc from my curtains.  And many of my bitmaps contain ONLY art made from scratch, and I mean totally from scratch, just an empty feild in PSP.  For someone to copy and share that is simple theft of intellectual property.  It's wrong, and it's rude to anyone who created an original bitmap etc. And it's considered rude in all gaming communities when someone copies someone else's bitmap etc file without asking their permission first.
For me personally, after I create something I don't really care where it ends up etc. But someone else might. And the fact is that by copying their work you have infringed on their rights. At least state that you know what you're doing is wrong but you're going to do it anyway.  Personally, I respect Discolusure.....not only at paysites, but here also.



OK, throw those rocks.....just keep them small! LOL!

:)

Well I thought that MTS2 became what it did b/c of Delphy and his girlfriend(?) that he...ya know...

And I think most of the negative comments aren't directed at MTS2 per se but some of Delphy's more recent actions, and those of his moderators (see above, around, lots of discussion on that here)



I think it's his attitude that's generating such negative responses. His actions don't have anything to do w/it. If he's mean and pissy pple are going to be mean and pissy right back.



Well, w/ the amount of dissenting posters that regularly drop by to voice their side of things, I'd say this site has a pretty good record for full disclosure.

:D Baa-Aa.

NeptuneSuzy: No rocks from me, but would it be that hard to leave TSR?
I don't think that all FAs are paid, I am more than willing to believe that Thomas takes advantage of the less mercenary creators who appreciate the honour of beng offered FAship. What saddens me is that he has a hold over you. Why should your friendships be held hostage? I have met some nice people at TSR too, and although I have not been there as long as you, nor do I have the added link of them hosting any creations, I did find at first that I did not want to leave. In the end I found things that matter more, and the friends I made are friends still. Not all of them, but those who have chosen to stay do not want their eyes opened and I prefer to talk to people who can think for themselves.
Sure TSR is convenient, but when was that a good reason for overlooking all the things they do that are wrong? By staying you are helping Thomas, by leaving you could introduce new simmers to the world outside TSR. A friend worth having would keep in touch and you might even find new friends.
Most of us pirates are actually nice people.

Sheesh.  I wrote my own post but realized it was pretty much what Pixel said.  I can elaborate though, since I have some experience in this stuff.

But, everyone from BlueSoup on down knows what I am going to say.

Filesharing isn't legal if you don't have the right to share, and just because a Sims 2 site posts something for pay doesn't change that.  Doesn't matter if you paid for it or not because you never paid for the right to distribute it. If you think you did, you'd better check your receipt again because you got ripped off.  I'm pretty sure there is an extra charge for that.

It'd be really nice if the IP laws were written such that electronic copies of stuff could be distributed in an unlimited manner.  The laws are pretty much written exactly the opposite of that, even in Malaysia.

So, while it is all nice a dramatic that everyone jabbers on about how there is nothing wrong, the fact of the matter is that even in Malaysia, that is not true.

Not that anyone is ever going to suffer from filesharing Sims 2 package files from paysites.  Infringing on someones Sims 2 content copyright is pretty trivial.

No Rocks from me either, glad to see you are willing to put your items up for free and not just at TSR,
I also believe not every FA gets a huge profit from their creations but there are those who do' which makes it hard to know who does and who does not which in turn makes FA's look bad in general,

Question though: why be an FA on a paysite if you decide to post your creations for free? if it is about "friendship" wouldnt it be better to know your friends would come to your own site to support you?

I understand that, but since the mission of PMBD is to reduce the number of Paysites, then it stands to reason that promoting free sites (like mts2) would be in PMBD's best interest in the long run.




I agree PMBD is an open, free speech, forum. Credit goes out for that!  But I'm refering to disclosure that PMBD's practice of copying bitmaps etc can in some cases be theft of intellectual property. I think disclosure (or maybe I should say clarification) should made by  PMBD that this can indeed be theft but they are willing to do it anyway. Just honest communication because some people posting here seem to think that isn't true.  





Is that the best you can do?  Or can you sum up a reasonable and respectable argument for me indicating why I'm a sheep? I'm always up for a good debate. :)



Captain Feathersword, Points well taken! But no fear, I'm not held hostage, :)



Captain Flint, Again, points well taken!  :)

Thanks for avoiding those rocks! LOL!

:)

One starts a movement, one gets a fair amount of crazy zealots along with it - at least, in a community as insane as the Sims2 community. Please note that there are people around who engage in intelligent dicussion, especially if they aren't approached with finger-wagging and scolding. Do that and you get heckled, as no one likes to be scolded as if they are causing the deaths of children over video game content.



I... don't think so. Have you ever looked at the modding communities for any other moddable game out there? Arguably, the modding community might not be as big or involved or advanced as it is without MTS2, but it sure as hell wouldn't be nonexistant, because EA DID provide Joe User with the tools to make basic CC, and we made perfectly good use of those tools, limited as they are, before third-party tools came out. We simply would have had to do what other modding communities do, most likely, and have the official site be the hub around which the community revolves.



You shouldn't be surprised - he came in here waggling his finger and scolding, and it was obvious he hadn't done more than skimmed any of the more intelligent arguments (and I'm being generous in that assement). His post sounded a lot like he was more interested in telling us what HORRIBLE PEOPLE WE ALL ARE.  That's not going to go over well ever, no matter the intentions of the person doing it or the issue at hand.




No, I'm afraid not. It is in a legal gray area, but much like music sharing, video sharing, sending of digitized artwork to other people over IM - the big companies would like you to believe there is infringement there, but when money isn't changing hands, nooot so much.

As an artist, I don't get het up because someone printed out my artwork to put up on their wall, or sent a copy of an art file to a friend of theirs. I know some people do get upset, as they've bought into this myth that any use of their artwork outside of their direct control is a violation. However, it isn't.

Also, while you very much do have copyright to any handpainted texture or texture made from a photograph, you do not own copyright to the package file. Putting that texture into a package file means you agree to EA's EULA, which says you must not use commercially.

If you want to use your textures commercially for Sims 2 stuff and be totally in the legal free and clear, then you'd have to sell them without putting them into that package file, with instructions on what to do with it. It'd be sleezy as hell, but you wouldn't be violating any EULA.



Again, nope, copying does not automatically equal an infringement.

And honestly, anyone who gets upset with what other people do with their work in a non-legally infringing manner once that person has put it out in public probably shouldn't be putting things out in public for other people to look at and use. Fact of the matter is, people WILL do fanart/write fanfic/copy/share/reuse/remix/even outright steal other people's stuff once they've so much as seen it. And fact of the matter is, even with as convoluted and strangling as modern copyright law is, there isn't a whole hell of a lot most people can do about other people doing those things UNLESS it's in a legally infringing manner - usually, outright theft and involving money. Someone remixing someone else's Sims 2 textures, no. That is, at the very most, a bit on the unethical side... and generally, only a bit. It's a very contemporary phenomenon that people get so upset over other people being even vaguely derivative of themselves or others.

If a person gets very upset every time someone does something with a copy of their work that they didn't personally authorize, then they are not yet ready to share their work with others. It's going to happen, and there is no possible way to prevent use of one's work that one doesn't authorize personally EXCEPT for not sharing it with anyone in the first place. Once a person can deal with this reality, once they can deal with actual infringement in a manner that will ensure the quickest possible resolution with the least amount of drama, then they are ready to share their stuff with the world.




Don't be too sure of that. Despite the howling by record labels, for example, it's not black and white legally. Especially not under the terms of the EA EULA - go back and read it thoroughly, and then note what I mentioned above about package files.

Welcome. Thank you for demostrating that not all FA's are bound and determined to make a profit off of their creations. I'm also glad to see that you did not come here with malice in mind. What a refreshing change of pace to see that there are civil-minded individuals in Tom's roster.

NeptuneSuzy: who said I was Baaing at you?? But if the shoe fits, wear it, be my guest!

PS: if you really care to read my 'extended opinion', as you can see if you glance to the left, I have over 100 posts. So if you really care what I think (or were you simply trying to look 'smart'?), try searching on my userid to find my posts, you know you can do that don't you? Go read.  I do not feel the need to repeat my opinion in every thread. Do you?

NeptuneSuzy, if the TSR folk are people you think of as friends, can't you try and talk them into reversing their idea of making FA stuff subscription only and put it back into free file rotation?  My main complaint about paysites is those players who *can't* subscribe and therefore have to simply go without stuff.   I didn't have a complaint against TSR before this recent decision.

I don't see why they made all the non-FA stuff free anyway.  It didn't seem to me to be such a bad idea having the subscribers pay for the sheer convenience of getting files any time they liked, while non-subbers just had to wait a few weeks till they rotated.  At least no one was straight-out deprived of certain files forever that way.

Everyone gets all excited and tingly about the EA EULA and for the most part you can toss it out.  EULA's have never been proven in court, so any rights you think that they may grant or deny are subject to interpretation.

At most you can use it as a guide regarding what you can and cannot do with original EA material using the original EA tools.

The catch is that other intellectual property gets mixed in with the EA stuff and there is not a damn thing that EA can do about it and they certainly can't do it in an EULA.

So long as you are not spreading around stuff that EA wants you to pay for, like the original game, expansions, and crap packs, it seems pretty clear that they don't care what you do with their stuff, regardless of what the EULA says.

But, EA cannot stop someone from adding their stuff to the game and they don't want to.  Meshes and textures can be, and occasionally are, 100% new and unique content that actually belongs to someone other than EA.  More often than not, it is a mixture of EA (or someone elses) content and the Sims 2 content creator's content.

That content is copyrighted and if the owner wants to get into a tizzy about postings here, they can do that.  It is illegal almost everywhere to post it while the owner is having a tizzy.

But, there ain't much they can do about it.  No one is going to spend thousands of dollars in court trying to remedy filesharing of something that has trivial value.  Some content creators don't want that anyway because then they would have to prove what is theirs, that they have the right to create and distribute it, and all that.  For the rest, it is just to much of a hassle.

Copying equates to infringement a lot more often than it does not, so one needs to be careful making blanket statements about infringement.

My personal belief is that everyone who creates Sims 2 content should encourage unlimited free use by others, including distribution, recolor, and modification.  Damn few content creators agree with me.

And, my beef with MTS2, other than it is down for some server crap right now, is that people seem to constantly reference pay meshes, particularly crap on TSR.  In my personal utopia, all recolors and textures come with the required mesh right there so that if I need it I can download it without having to go anywhere else to get it.

This simply isn't true, copyright is not a grey area. When any individual puts an idea from their head into something tangible they own a copyright to that tangible item. This cannot be copied by another individual. It has nothing to do with money being made. I'm not sure why people have drawn this false conclusion. it's about intellectual property plain and simple.

The creator may not mind their work being copied, but that doesn't change the rules of copyright.


And BTW, putting an original bmp into an EA package does not relinquish the creator's rights to their ORIGINAL work. But hey the EULA was never intended for individuals or Sim sites in the first place. it is a protection for EA from infringment by other Large corporations.


:)

Besides, it is no easy task to tromp thru all the free stuff looking for those few items worth downloading.  So why not put the FA stuff in rotation? Seems pointless and silly and vindictive for TSR to change policy now.

I guess I figured since your post came directly after mine that you were Baaing at me.....  if not me then who were you Baaing at?




Well when I said "freinds" at TSR I meant other FA's, creators, and downloaders. Not the site owners. I really have no influence over their decisions...sorry.  :(


.

Ah well in *that* case, why not as a group all move elsewhere?  You don't need to lose your connections with your friends at all :)

Not on your own, maybe not.  But, if there were other FA's who agreed with this, then you would maybe have some say?

No, it didn't come 'directly after' your post. Me is beginning to think thou protest too much....  :lol:

Had to go look at the spellling: I was baaing at 'I agree with Dr. Pixel' lordrichter who, also, it appears, at least to me, can't seem to decide which direction s/he is travelingin.

Ooops, I guess I was reading quickly..... I'm working and trying to follow this thread at the same time, LOL!  

But don't keep me in suspense...... who is the infamous sheep??? LOL!

Edit to add: Oops again you just posted that you were baaing at lordrichter............ You must have edited when i was posting, or I'm going blind, LOL!



:)

:D not blind--we ARE overlapping.

This is because you think that I am trying to tell you what to do, and that you should not be doing what you are doing.  I am not, but you are probably reading it that way...

:lol: No, it's not that.  :lol:  

I smell 12ness....

Very true, and that's not what I'm arguing.



I don't know. From what I've seen about the actual implementation of copyright law (artist/writing communities, fyi), the rules are not clear cut and are not consistant - and I'm not entirely sure that copyright as it stands right now is of much good to anyone but big corporations.

I'm not suggesting that people should be happy about being taken from, or that people should reuse and share the artwork of others (when it is actually the other person's) indiscrimanently, or that it isn't ever a violation to do so. Hm... I'm not being very clear, I realize.

To boil it down, I'm not so sure that the screams of copyright violation are actually as correct those screaming make it out to be, based on my own experiences, and I'm very tired of the conflation of 'against copyright law' (as percieved by the screamer) equaling 'ethically wrong', especially considering the usual mores of gaming communities and how very many people use work from outside sources, change it a tiny bit, and then insist that it is theirs.

Blah, blah, blah. I'm heading into tldr; land and not making as much sense as I'd like to, so I'll stop boring you lot and try again tomorrow if the conversation hasn't completely veered in other directions by then. ;)



Which I said. Please read carefully.

It's a compromise you make, sure, I can understand that.  Sort of.  I have a major hate-on for Thomas, but that has nothing to do with you, so I won't even bother you with it.  I can understand not wanting to leave the friends you've made there.  I have been to your site (TS2 Creations) and I know you offer content there free, is it all the same as you put up at TSR?  If so, good on ya.



The only problem I have ever had with Delphy is when he allowed a forum on MTS2 to be created specifically to target filesharers, which is when my personal home address was shared.  Once LyricLee was gone, the forum was deleted, and thus my problem with him is gone.  On the contrary, I'm mostly happy with the way he's handling paysite issues now (allowing them to be debated, and requiring CC recolourists to state whether they're recolouring a pay mesh, etc.)



We don't do that - we buy content from paysites and then share it amongst ourselves.

Welcome to the U.S. Copyright Office:

Here is the copyright address:

http://www.copyright.gov/about.html

And here is the law pertaining Visual Art Works:

http://www.copyright.gov/register/visual.html

Although in online arguments, i read it states that maxis does not own your material' but when used in their games/computer playable material, it is of free use to them to do what they please to it.. including useing it in future expansions, not that they own it, although that argument may be wrong? thats what i have read into it so far, You lose control of your object/Material.

NepuneSuzy, I would first like to say how much I admire you, while I don't agree with you, it just goes to show what a difference an attitude can make, between yours and Dr Pixel's, and to a confusing extent, Lordrichter.



If you could consider this...it would be wonderful.

I think it's that one loses control of their object/material as far as it is put into the package file, but not that one completely relenquishes copyright. As far as that goes, at least. I'm not a fan of EULAs in general but I don't quite believe they have no validity whatsoever.

Yeah, yeah, shutting up now. :P

lordrichter and people like him is the sole reason for this forums existence, Hence the "I Smell Bullshit" Term.  :wink:

It may be either or? i just dont know without EA's actual intellect on the whole matter  
i do not think they are ever gonna step in and advise on what is and is not on any matter concerning the sims2 as long as they are recieving royalties on it? which is a shame as it may stomp out alot of crud from happening throughout the comunities.

Sorry, I'm reading two pages of threads now, so I am writing replies as I read them:



That is exactly why there's a problem with some people towards Dr Pixel - his content has nothing to do with it, his attitude does.

US copyright law is definitely geared towards the corporate world, if you ask me (and I know you were dying to do that).  The fact that you have to be registered in order to even bring legal action sets the tone right there.  Sure, it only costs $45 to register a copyright, but a copyright only covers a single work and you must register each work that you want to protect.



There are only two ways that I could see this.  The first is if the "original material" wasn't so original and was therefore not copyrightable, like you said.  No copyright, no violation.  However, someone owns it and it isn't the public, so while the content creator might not be able to scream 'infringement', someone else might be able to.

The other is if someone tried to say that it was "fair use" to distribute it or reuse it, and so for no one has successfully made that case.

Funny, because I don't think any creators have paid for the right to sell their EA-derivative works either.

You are correct  :)  

even if they did pay for the right to sell' they would only be allowed to sell their own original mesh or texture file created beyond the games content..
not the original works built by maxis
unless they gave them permission which i dont see happening anytime soon, as is that creation would be useless unless someone bought it and used it for the games sole purpose.

I absolutely don't think that when I put my lovely, hard worked on texture files into a .package, I should lose all rights to it. It is my complete choice to allow my stuff to be manhandled and dismantled, and that's fine with me. I do support "creator rights", to an extent.

To me, creators should have the basic right to be acknowledged. If you create something, the very least that you should get is credited for your work. No one else should be able to claim your work or anything shady like that. However, in my opinion, rights shouldn't extend to charging for an item that contains code/images/meshes created by someone else. I especially gag when I see paysites that are blatantly using images lifted from the internet (not every image on the internet is free source!), or meshes that have been lifted from 3D sites. Paysite/EA debate aside, using those resources for profit is copyright violation.

Anyway, EULA or not, I just balk at the idea of having to pay for something that should be free. If EA came out and said paysites are kosher by them, I'd still go back to quietly filesharing. I am something of a pirate anyway, I almost never shell out money for software, games or music sight unseen (or sound unheard, as it were), and often I only actually go out and buy the product if it is exceptional. So yeah, I'm not trying to play goody-goody here, I do things regularly that aren't always above board. I think this debate would get a lot more productive if everyone involved stopped pretending that they are above reproach.

Also, I am usually more than happy to keep whatever filesharing I do out of the "community eye". If paysites were operating the way they had done  when TS2 first came out, I would probably still be mum about it. When only a very few sites were pay and they usually had exceptional stuff, I still disagreed with the general practice and would get what I could without forking over cash, it wasn't quite as galling. Now, every mediocre sim creator seems to think it is only their due to set up shop and rake in the cash. This is the trend a lot of us want to put a stop to, and raise a little hell to let those people know loud and clear that this is not okay by us.

Anyway, on my part at least, the FAs at TSR are not being targeted or anything like that. After all, if FAs were raking in the bucks, how would Thomas be making his money? I think the place is rather vile and despicable, but not because of the "talent", though it would be nice to see them move to a free venue. It is because the "owner" is profiting so hugely off of the efforts of others, and rather despotic with the running of the place.

And TSR isn't a large corporation?

People aren't supposed to be profiting from game content, period.

The point I tried to make in another posting in another location was along the lines of whether use of EA intellectual property included an implicit agreement to allow EA distribution rights for non-EA copyrighted material also included.

My thought is that it is impossible to make a Sims 2 package file without use of some EA intellectual property, or some intellectual property that EA has licensed for their own use.  This may not necessarily be copyrights, but could include patents and trademarks.  I have not searched the USPTO to see who owns the file format used by packages.

Until EA did the trick with the meshes on the Exchange, there was no indication that EA was thinking in that direction.  However, now there is indication that EA is thinking along those lines.

If that is the case, then yes, placing your content in a package file may very well mean an implicit grant of distribution rights to EA.  That may be limited solely to cases where the content ends up on the Exchange, by whatever means it gets there.

No, I doubt that they have.  It is also equally true that EA has not lifted a finger to do anything about it.  

Unless you count including meshes on the Exchange to be a first move.

Lack of action on the part of EA could be considered to be approval to do so.

The same can be said for a lack of action about this site, which they are certainly aware of.

The whole thing is:  Both sides (pro- and anti-) are obviously going to conflict.  However, EA has not made a move in either direction, which basically means we're butting our heads here in what really amounts to a stalemate.  I continue to debate this topic on other sites because I feel too many people are being brainwashed into believing that paysites are the norm, when in fact this is like the first community to have such a large concentration of them.  Everyone and their dog seems to think they can make quick cash on unsuspecting game players, and that needs to end before it becomes an epidemic out of control (if it's not already).

TSR does not even display the "required" EA disclaimer as specified in the EULA.  It is unlikely that the actions of TSR have gone unnoticed by the highly paid staff of lawyers at EA.

The fact that TSR is still going at it, and being even more greedy about it, says that either they think that EA has rolled over and won't do anything, or they have already made a licensing agreement with EA that allows them to profit from Sims 2 material.

There is nothing that says that either party must disclose such an agreement, unless the disclosure was part of the agreement.  TSR has reason the keep such a license under wraps if they think that others might follow and do the same thing, thus cutting into the pie.

I don't see this site violating EA copyrights since they have said that content created using EA tools and materials may be distributed for private non-commercial use.  That should cover any EA intellectual property in the packages that you have on here, even if they don't claim distribution rights for all content in packages.

EA could care less about Peggy's copyrights (for example) and I doubt that they would spend money if they did.

You can join my TSR defectors and I'll sponsor you. :)

I totally agree about the first part; I would go back to quietly filesharing with my friends, but Pescado made this site to put it in the public eye and to NOT stay quiet about it.  I'd rather be in somewhat limited control over what happens here than not, like for instance not putting up stuff by Around the Sims 2.  Since Pescado is not a downloader, he has no idea what is a paysite and what isn't.

I don't have anything against any of the creators at TSR either (except perhaps Windkeeper), and I'd be happy to have a whole bunch on their own free site which I would even pay for. :D

All the legal crap has been discussed to death, and most people simply believe whatever they came to the table believing in the first place, or believing whatever is most beneficial for themselves.  Personally, I don't care.

The fact is that user-made content for computer games has traditionally been a community thing, freely given, freely shared, and some thanks, admiration, and appreciation has been the only payment sought.  Gamers take inspiration (and help) from modders and learn to mod themselves, and on it goes.  

Then the sims came along and some scum-of-the-earth saw an opportunity to make some cash, and took it.  And it needs to be stopped because it's a disease that could possibly spread to the gaming community at large.

I really don't know about the legal end of it.  Honestly, from my reading of the EULA, for what it's worth, the moment any user-made content becomes "commercial," that is, sold for money, all other arguments about copyright cease, because the EULA has been violated.  But I'm no more a lawyer than all the other people commenting--so my opinion flies well with me, but may not fly at for you.  But it doesn't matter.

The FIRST wrong was done when money was charged for user-made content in the first place.  Whether or not the second wrong (sharing "pay" content freely) is even wrong at all is irrelevant to me--it would have never been an issue had the first wrong not been commited.

Personally, I don't beleive what this site is doing IS wrong, nor do I believe it's illegal--or, if it is, EA themselves have been committing the same crime with the Exchange.  You'd think their lawyers would have already told them to stop it if there was a possible problem, but hey, who knows.

On another note, I'm a little confused on the issue of TSR FA's, so maybe someone can help me out here.
If they are NOT making decent money from being TSR FA's, then why ARE they TSR FA's?  Doesn't it bother them that certain other people ARE making a good chunk of change off their creations?  There's got to be some kind of perks involved somehow that are more than "oh I like the people," because that's just dumb, and the FA's strike me as smarter than that.

Of course--now that they ARE FA's they might as well stay there, really.  TSR is like Hotel California--you can check out anytime you like but TSR is gonna keep your creations and continue to make money of 'em.  Can you choose to stay at TSR (since the "community" is what you're there for right) and just not be an FA?  If I saw an FA do that, I might start to really beleive the "I'm not there for the money" bit.  Til then, I want to believe, but I'm just not convinced.

I think the TSR FA's all sort of got lured/hired/promoted/whatever as they went along.  Someone who was there near the beginning, making good content may not be making much at all, if any.

Someone who is prolific with content releases and makes consistently good content, has a large number of downloads and seems to be a magnet for subscribers (ie. Windkeeper) will probably get more money than others.

New FA's who fold their site in favour of going to TSR probably get paid a fair bit.

All this is based on conjecture, and not fact.

I've been reading for a good week now, and I have to say I went through many different emotions but have chilled out considerably and won't vent them.  (And I gotta tell you, I laughed my ass of over the Carla Niven thread.  Yeah, I read the whole thing.)  But I have a few things to say and here they are.

Sure, you have the booty! but PMBD does not even come close to offering what TSR does.  TSR provides a comprehensive database through which anyone can conveniently search for specific downloads.

It's all about convenience.  No one would download any TSR downloads off your booty without viewing them on TSR first.  Therefore, your site leeches off TSR and your beef is really with them, not EA.  Except EA likes TSR (obviously, since they invite Steve to EP previews).

TSR provides a service; they give subscribers the downloading wizard, they update the site frequently, they offer such variety, the fun challenge wizard, the community, etc.  You don't appreciate the censorship, but many parents do (It's called marketing :wink: ).  And sure, I don't know why they don't like for people to try to discuss "business" on their forums.  It's none of our business how they run their company.  Maybe they like to keep that kind of thing private.  Lots of companies do.

So I was wondering... could you design, build, maintain, staff, and run a site like TSR for free?  Because that would be amazing.  I'd love to see you do it, Pescado.  Your generosity has always been something to admire.  (I'm not being sarcastic... I love your work)

You think making a site like that is easy?  PROVE IT.  If you turned this site into something people could actually USE with the features TSR has, then you'd really have something over it.

To me, this isn't an issue of selling custom content at all.  This is selling a database.  And paysites have every right to charge for it if they put up a good website.


disclaimer: Although I am a TSR Forum Moderator, my affiliation is completely voluntary and I get site priveleges only.  I am not privy to the interworkings of TSR nor do I represent TSR officially.  I speak only my opinion.

Erm, MTS 2 already does all that with a vastly superior search function and no half-naked sleazy date service ads.

So sure, charge for all the extras if you want and if people want those extras, I'm sure they'll pay for them. But how can you say they have the right to charge for actual custom content? The download wizard is bs anyway, MTS provides much the same features and convenience as TSR and is completely free.

This thread is a hoot.

http://phorum.mustnotbenamed.com/viewtopic.php?t=241

TSR has a terrible setup. Want a recolor for something, click 5 million times. Everything is double-zipped. The names of everything are jumbled. It's not "convenient" at all, it's a mess.

I don't see how it's vastly superior, but that's open to opinion.  They've perhaps found a more thrifty way of running a website.  They don't steal TSR content, however.  This website does, and does not even bother posting a picture of it.  That's abusing TSR.


TSR is just marketing their best stuff to make people want to subscribe.  That is commerce.  They are still providing a service other than the content itself.

Huh? I thought they weren't selling their content? Make up your mind will you?

Yeah, I volunteered at one. It's called Elfwood now, google it. Different content, but similar structures. but it was designed by a college student in his spare time, built by him and his friends, maintained and staffed by volunteers, and has been since 1996.

And for all it's a genre art community, somehow has LESS drama than this one. I'm sure I've mentioned before how much that astounds me.

Oh for jeez sake.

Do you really think TSR isn't making any money and is getting what they spend on the site?  Get freakin' real.

MTS2 is vastly superior, not in the least of which it's being completely FREE!

I'm a little confused. As far as I know, this place isn't trying to become like, the new TSR, or compete with it as such, BlueSoup has merely offered an alternative....And once more, no-one's stolen anything from TSR..

I never said that.  Why do you care if they make money?  Even if their content "should be free", should their labor be free, too?

Why do you care if they don't make money?

Their labor is voluntary since it is based on the implied agreement that they can only accpet donations (re: not charge for them) to cover bandwidth.

Nobody is making them take something that is not really all theirs to begin with and change it a little bit so they can claim exclusive rights.

Yes. Because they're doing this out of choice, there's no right there for payment..

Eh? I'm not following this line of thinking...

If we are forced to do it, we get to charge, but if we choose to do it, we have to do it for free?

According to this (http://thesims2.ea.com/community/interview_tsr.php) interview.  Steve Bonham set up TSR to share with the community.

Well, he went back on his word, he aint sharin' no more.  He chose to make TSR for the community, for the community spirit, (if I read the interview correctly).

TSR used to have free rotation of all content,  people paid subs to gain better site access, no ads, the download wizard/basket, etc.

Now FA content is held to ransom.

In other words, it started as a very small site.  Then it grew a lot bigger and more complicated.  How dare they?!


"implied agreement"?  I smell bullshit. :roll:

Do tell. It's spewing forth from your mouth a mile a minute. Is TSR being threatened by The Site That Must Not Be Named? Will your 'job' be taken away if TSR ceases to bring in more customers? Is that why you are here "Miss Invisible" of TSR fuming and foaming to get into Tom's good graces to finally become noticed? How charming.  :)

Just wanted to point out that all the mods "work" on a completely voluntary basis. It's not a "job" really. :)

*Goes back to lurking.*

:)

Because some people are stupid (me included), and don't do their homework.  We allowed it to happen.  

I don't think for one minute that EA will put an end to this debate.  It will take the community to decide.

As I have stated before, though.  New players do not know about these issues, they stumble upon TSR when they google for info, fall into the trap of paying for something for lack of more information.

That is why these debates need to stay prominent in the community, so people can make informed choices.

As if that had anything to do with it.  I've never created a damn thing, you're free to check.

It doesn't matter anyway.  The average person is going to use TSR, not come here.  I don't feel threatened by you.  In fact, the people higher than me are laughing at you.

Me, I'm just trying to relate.  I do like to keep an open mind.  But these are some things I thought I'd mention, do you have an open mind?

Jfade, thanks for the note but it was actually meant to be taken as sarcasm.  I'll do better to drip more acid into my written form the next time.  :wink:

Heehee, I figured so, but I just wanted that out there for reference as well, as many don't know that. :)

Then perhaps you should wipe your backside.  Because you are not supposed to be running a commercial site based of of selling what does not belong to you - package files.

The bullshit I'm smelling is people like yourself who try to evade EULAs when it is in their best interests, but whine about the injusices of people distributing their work against their will.



And TSR among several other sites will use ham-fisted censorship to make sure this statement remains true.  Because if more people knew about this site, the majority of them would in fact not continue to pay TSR.

Nice. I touched a nerve with Miss Invisible of TSR. I do so adore it when people come here with malicous intent and then turn around to say, "Do you have an open mind?" As if you had an open mind to begin with coming here with the sole purpose of starting up drama for the sake of becoming noticed for the first time.  

If you know so much about the in's and out's of TSR then do take the time to explain the sudden drop in the FA's download counts and the amount of  subscription losses if more people are going to TSR?  Hmm? Come out with it I am willing to hear it with an open mind.

Pity, you mention that the people higher up than you are laughing at me? First off this only shows me that you at least know your role as a lapdog at Tom's throne. Good for you! Second, the laughter is on them for taking a site that actually worked as free site and later on creating a monstrous absurdity out of it. And third, I must be really good at intimidation. I didn't even have to threaten you to make you feel that you had to type the line of 'I don't feel threatened by you'.

Insert my laughter here. :wink:

Is there some concerted TSR effort to infiltrate this site today? How come these patsies all signed up today?



Well, obviously. I mean, isn't it your job to make sure it stays that way? You do moderate there, right? One of the censor nazis?

You wouldn't be very good at your job if the avg person were actually able to switch over here. :wink:

I was wondering something along those lines.  There seems to be regular intervals between them.

What happens when all the cannon fodder is used up?

What will get sent in next?

LMAO I am laughing my ass off at this thread now.

Baba-whatever, go back to Thomas, tell him he's a fucking asshole.  M'kay, pumpkin? :P

There is a general implied understanding when creating game content (and you don't work for a gaming company) that it is a hobby and not a job.  If you want to make it a job, go apply at a gaming company, don't try to illegally sell EA-derived works to poor, unsuspecting players who don't know any better.

You'd think they'd want to send in people who could effectively argue a point.  Because if your mission is based on people who keep telling you that the EULA doesn't matter, but their own "rights" do, you've got someone who's not doing their job well.



Add to that the contracted agreement that when you do work for a gaming company, the content you make is also theirs, not yours.  If the people who make the code, textures, meshes, etc. at EB Games can't claim copyright over what they produce, what makes Joe Shmoe who frankencreated a derrivative work think they can claim copyright?  In spite of the false claims of vested interests, the EULA is an agreeement you make with the company.

Back in the early days of MTS2, TSR did exactly that: sent their droogies to MTS2 to 'infiltrate'. JM will remember that....

I love it when someone as brainwashed as Ba-Ba Jayne comes along and says things so obviously deluded as "I have an open mind"  :lol: Cracks me up! "Say it and it will be so, grasshopper."  :lol:

Edit: That's just it: They don't have anyone that can effectively argue this point because their view of this point is so wacked out!

Oh you know me so well. :roll:

Do you read disclaimers?

It's probably because this site is here, offering it for free.  Or maybe it's a fluctuation in the economy.  I really don't care.

Mock me all you like.  I expected as much from you.  And you asked me if TSR was threatened by The Site That Must Not Be Named.  I was assuming that question was directed at me, even though I already said I don't speak for TSR... since you seem to have missed the disclaimer in the first place.

Huh. I never noticed how sheep sounding her name was. Perfect fit, don't you think?

When you make a disclaimer, it's good form to avoid contradicting yourself, thus negating the disclaimer.

If you don't speak for TSR, then don't presume to speak for TSR.  It's really quite simple.

:lol: Ba-Ba --why would ANYONE willingly choose that is this place?? Very funny.

Well that's already my handle.  Should I be "coffeedrinker"?

Eloquently put, Pariland.



Wouldn't that just make your day if that was actually true? Why then you could have actually something of interest to write into your diary for a change!  :D

Yes, TSR sells a service, I agree. Good or bad it's not my business, it's up to customer's choices to pay that service or not.

According to your statements, TSR product is service. I agree again.
What I fail to understand is who is stealing TSR products and where this happens.
You said we are stealing your stuff, but in the same post you also said that PMBD doesn't have the service you (TSR) offer. So... who and where is stealing/copying/whatever your product? Please, clarify.

So far, what I see is a site (this) which offers a different service (bare ftp), for different price (free). Following the same arguments you previously wrote, it's called business competition, at the very end.

So, go on selling your product, why not? This doesn't stops me, however, to support a different and cheaper service for the same files (which is not your products, you said that), assuming that it's legal, as I believe.
In the same way, this doesn't stops me to tell other former and wannabe consumers that there are other choices, and not some sort of mandatory monopoly, and openly spread this informations wherever I want and whenever I want.
This is called, instead, consumer rights defense. And advertisement, as well.

(Edited because I suck and posted the last phrase not complete)

Well, there's no effort that I know of. *Shrugs* I've been meaning to sign up for a while anyhow, just because I tend to register at a lot of Sims forums and I don't have any direct objection to this place.

I may be a forum mod for TSR, but I have nothing to do with the downloads part of the site. Additionally, I like to think of myself as an individual and a contributer to the community (My site is http://www.djssims.com/ for anyone who doesn't know) so I hope that the simple fact that I moderate some of the forums at TSR doesn't make everyone here have a horrible impression on me. :)

TSR offers a pain in the neck database that can only be offered manually. We offer a standardized directory listing you can mass-dump with any number of programs and scripts out there. Our layout is highly efficient and allows people to quickly find and get the droids they're looking for. No crappy slow-loading unnecessary front end.


I hate marketers, you know that? Bunch of lying bullshit artists, that's all they are.


*LIKE* TSR? Why the hell would I want to do that? TSR is a crappy site. Navigating the place is absolutely and positively Byzantine. Better than TSR? Absolutely.

I didn't even know you are a mod at TSR, Jfade. I only knew you as the person who makes useful things and pokes around at MATY from time to time.

Personally, I like to deal with everyone who comes here as their own person, regardless of where they choose to spend their time. In several cases, there have been paysite owners who have come here and expressed their opinion coherently, engaged in intelligent debate, and I can honestly say that I have no problems whatsoever with them personally. In previous cases, most of the people who post here can be very civil, even to people they disagree with, if the situation warrants it.

Also, I agree with Pescado. I don't want another TSR! I personally hate the way the database is set up. Yes, I will admit that the abolition of zips-within-zips has improved things greatly, but I honestly prefer Delphy's free services to TSR's for-profit services.

BabaJayne if you're not getting any of the profits, why are you helping Thomas? He really does have a good thing going there, most of his "staff" are voluntary and even go out into the bad scary places to defend his right to make as much money as he can from the sheep even though he doesn't share it.
I am unable to admire him for it as I find that sort of behaviour despicable, but I do stare in wonder. How can they not see that he is taking advantage of them?

jfade,

It hasn't been lost on any of us here what you contribute to the sims community and do so for FREE, mod at TSR or not :).

I have blown your horn for you in several of these redundant threads. Your programs rock and we love you for them.

If anyone deserves to charge for their content it's you and JM and twojeffs and Quaxi et al etc etc. So many to name....none of the names that belong to those that make CC with Quaxi's 'intellectual property' which he offers for FREE and then gets 'personalized' to suit indivdual tastes easily with your 'intellectual properties' which you offer for FREE.

Paysiteowners/participants should hang their heads in shame for the lies and greed that they display/promote. They should make public apologies to everyone in this community and offer their content for FREE for evermore to make amends. OR they might make some HUGH 'donations' to those that made the very creation of the content possible
[insert everyone's name that gives freely here.]

You have "people higher than you"?! THAT is what is wrong with paysites. They fuck up the community with hierarchical shit. Go away. Then maybe the community for this game will cease being quite so laughably pathetic.

Babajayne - I've merged your posts together.  From what I hear, you're quite the forum nazi at TSR, and double posting apparently warrants a tongue-lashing from you.  See to it that it doesn't happen here, m'kay?

AnneBonny wins the Hit-The-Nail-On-The-Head prize! :lol:

Do you mean like that concerted effort to "eat up the bandwidth" at this site?  Also known as The Festival of Hypocrites and Liars ;)

TSR is a slow, ugly, ad-infested mess.  And sometimes the ads are virus invested.  Thank GOD PMBD doesn't offer any of that.


You're joking, right?  The only convenient thing about TSR is how easy it is to not go there.

Is that what they're telling you, or did you come up with such a blanket statement all by yourself?  It's incorrect. Firstly, it would be easier/quicker/more convenient/less annoying to download something here and view it on my own comp than to fight the ads and try and find it on TSR to view it first.  Secondly, it's not as if the pictures on TSR are any real indication of what something will look like ingame anyway--so why bother looking at them there? Waste of time.


I don't think anyone here cares if TSR charges for that stuff, though I'm not sure why anyone wants most of it.


The censorship at TSR is interesting to say the least.  We know that the boards must be kept happy-smiley-pro-tsr, and that ostensibly the content is censored--like no nipples on skintones (which is idiotic, but nm.) Then again, you have the results you get from certain searches of the content, such as the phrase "sexy teen."  Marketing indeed. It's called hypocrisy, among other things.  :wink:  


Now here is a case of a sheep pulling the wool over her OWN eyes.  Would you like to know why they don't like "business" being discussed?  I'll bet in your heart of hearts you DON'T want to know why. Ignorance is bliss and you seem really happy.  And yet, you seem to realize that it IS a business, and that they are hiding things purposely, and attempting to control the spread of information. Doesn't this tell you anything?  C'mon, think hard now...


That would be MTS2 and it's been done already--except much better than TSR, because MTS2 isn't full of ads, doesn't have 200 recolors of the same damn thing to wade through, shows actual ingame screenshots in most cases, has larger pictures so that quality (or lack thereof) isn't hidden, and, oh yeah, is free.


If the features and whatnot that TSR has are as good as you think, then they ought to be able to stay afloat simply by taking freely-given donations and charging subscription for the extra features, while making the downloads free-for-all then, right? Nope, probably not.  So yes, call it what you like, but it's an issue of selling custom content.  Period.

Thank you, Blue.  First for making me laugh out loud, and then for saying exactly what I was going to say in my post.  

THIS IS A HOBBY.  YOU DON'T WORK FOR EA.  YOU DIDN'T DESIGN THE CODE EMBEDDED IN EVERY ONE OF YOUR CREATIONS THAT IS REQUIRED FOR THEM TO WORK.  MAXIS DID.

I apologize for shouting.

Also, we keep getting accused of stealing.  Stealing intellectual property (which is what CC amounts to, same as music or artwork or written materials), at least in this community, generally means taking credit for another artist's work.  Who's doing that here???

Hi BlueSoup, no TSR isn't a large corporation. EA, IBM, Citicorp etc are large corporations. EULA's are there in practice to protect a company (such as EA) from it's competitors.... in this case other large gaming corporations. TSR is a tiny tiny company in the corporate world and of no threat to EA. As a matter of fact EA encourages sites like TSR because they help keep the lifespan of Sims2 going longer. I would speculate that EA would also encourage a site such as PMBD to continue since PMBD also helps to keep the lifespan of the game going, and that is EA's only goal.....sell the game and make a profit.

Bottom line is that EA could care less what we're doing with the files as long as CC is keeping the game alive and the game is being talked about etc.

In some ways EA is the enemy here..........  






EA knows they can not copy an individual's originally created bitmap, but EA is a large corporationa and well aware that no individual can afford to bring a suit against them. But you can be damn sure that if some very wealthy individual creator made a bitmap that was copied to the exchange, and that wealthy creator threatened to bring a suit to EA then EA would pull that file off the exchange.    






It may sound lame (or just dumb) but " I like the people" IS the reason I'm still at TSR. I really enjoy the downloaders over there, and some of the other creators also. OK, I admit it sounds lame.......but it's true.  
And about the money, like I said earlier, it's not big bucks....not even close. Truth is that it wouldn't even pay my phone bill! LOL!  






Yikes, I hope I'm not a patsie now! LOL!
I've actually been following this site for quite a while now.....I'm a bit of a lurker!  Earlier today I decided to start posting, frankly it took me until today to get the nerve to post because, being a TSR FA, I was afraid of those potential rocks flying my way, LOL!
Anyway, I'm definately no-one's patsie and my views given so far are completely my own..... I am certainly not speaking for TSR, it's not my company......


:)

Well, thank you, NeptuneSuzy, for being a breath of fresh air in the barrage of hate coming from TSR.  We've just about given up on any intelligent debate from anyone there...

Okay, I see what you mean about the large corporation.  I guess when you're thinking in those giant terms, it's a small company.  The fact is, though, that it is still a company, and they are making a pretty penny off what you create for them.

But you're right, EA doesn't give a damn what is happening with paysites, or this site and others like it, as long as people are buying the game and no one is suing them.  Which is why I said we can debate the issue all we like, but in the end, paysites aren't going away, and neither is this site.  Filesharing sites and groups have been around for a long time, it just happens to be that Pescado was the first one to make it so big, showy and public like this.  But SFV has had its share of drama in the past from irate site owners as well.

I don't necessarily blame you for wanting to stay with people you know, but I do hope you also post all your TSR content on your site for free, if you haven't already.  

You know I was banned from there, and my profile removed, but they kept my content I had uploaded there and I have no way to delete it?  Whatever happened to "creator rights"?  :roll:

Jfade, what I am curious about is, with your own site so clearly stating your anti-pay-content views, just WHY are you a volunteer moderator at a site like TSR that now has a pay-only section?

THANK YOU.

People seem to get very, very confused over what intellectual property theft is. All work is credited here, and you know which sites/creators the Booty comes from. We do not claim to have made any of the CC ourselves.

Uploading someone else's work to the Exchange and calling it your own is intellectual property theft. I hope people start to realize the important distinction.

With regard to TSR as a large corporation: they may not *technically* qualify for one, and I would be the last person to know how they would :P. but they certainly *behave* like a large corporation by being THE Sims 2 monopoly. Witness how they are buying up other smaller, independent sites. TSR is definitely a for-profit business, with a profit margin large enough to make them "The Corporation" of the Sims 2 world, IMO. So, legally they may not be one, but it is certainly not the case ideologically.

uh.... *clears throat*.... let's see..... Babajayne, uh..... *reads through glasses* you are a well respected member (even though I dislike you) of this community.... *cough* *punches self*



You'd think that if we cared about those "stealing" comebacks, we would've acted like we cared by now

PS I'm keeping the second part though

Wht are you talking about, Super Pirate Dude? Babajayne is such a well-respected member of the the Sims 2 Community and she is clearly VERY ELOQUENT, especially when her own misguided opinions are questioned!

I think you should edit your own post to say "Awesome and Amazing Babajayne" and punch yourself in the face for even thinking about questioning her authority!

I did like her, until she put me on probation.

But if you want me to. We really need a punch face smiley or something, it's hard to punch myself if I can't show me doing it! lol

If is was not her decision but she was the one who had to tell me, I still respect her. I do respect her, I just don't like her. But whatever.  :wink:

Lol they always say "just following rules" but you need to bear in mind none of them were forced to become moderators and support those rules in the first place.  Anyone who is a site moderator of any site (other than one which is connected to their daytime paid job) is doing it because they agree with it.

If I was an unpaid moderator of a site and didn't believe in or enjoy all the bans and probations I was told to give out, I would resign.

To all the TSR supporters that have recently arrived, I would like to sum up my position on this matter that has (in my view) been needlessly complicated by some: *ahem*

Why should I respect the wishes of paysite creaters/owners that their items are not distributed (or recolored, whathaveyou) when they themselves cannot hold themselves to that very same standard (refusing to honor EA Games' EULA that their items are distributed noncommercially)? If, as some of you state, EULAs are not legally binding, it can at the very least be considered an official request from the company that actually created the game in question from scratch to not profit off of their creation. You want to talk about moral standards? I personally refuse to heed anything unrepentant hypocrites choose to preach about.

And incidentally, on the issue of the EULA, choosing to disregard/disrespect it simply because it doesn't support your profiteering off of someone else's copyrighted creation is rather petty and childish (and not at all a valid strategy).

The people that really irritate me to no end are those that choose to try to use the 'moral superiority' card to act like they're "above" people who disagree with them, which was why Dr. Pixel's attitude was such a let-down (why does being a parent mean that you're automatically right anyways? That's what his attitude appeared to be to me). Posturing and moralizing with no actual logic and facts to back you up does nothing to add to a debate (and yes, file-sharing Sims 2 custom content is a debate, not a ''OMG WHAT YOU'RE DOING IS WRONG!' hysterical reaction).

Please note that my tongue was firmly in cheek when I was writing my last post! ;)

I notice that babajayne quietly ignored the fine example I gave her of an enormous site being run completely for free. Now, why is that?

Although I'm at a loss why she thinks that any site has to be just like TSR to be in competition for it.



What a ludicrious statement. It is absolutely the customer's business to know how a company conducts themselves as a part of their consumer rights and protection. What a company does effects many people and their money, and those people have a right to know what their money is going towards. Their need to know stops at what individual employees do with their paychecks, but not before.


Now I'm going to divert a little to something else entirely that's been bothering me, the statement that since Sims 2 content creation is a hobby, creators have no right to charge for it.

I do a lot of things as 'hobbies'. I sew, I paint, I crochet. If someone came up to me and told me I had to give what I made to them for free because I did it for fun, as a hobby, I would kick their asses. Doing something for fun does not negate the value of my work or my time. I do not have some moral obligation to give my pretty thing to others just because I enjoyed making it, or because I'm not a professional at it. It doesn't matter that Sims 2 content is digital; most of my paintings are digital, and you can bet I'm not going to let anyoen use them however they please just because of that. I find it false logic to state in regards to Sims 2 content that no one is allowed to charge for it because it is done as a hobby.

No, I find it wrong to charge for Sims 2 content for other reasons entirely.

- Charging goes against the social norms and mores of the gaming community.
- Charging promotes a spirit of greed, rather than a spirit of sharing, that spreads to the terms of use and attitudes of even free creators.
- This greed limits the creative expansion of the community - enough people are more worried about money and stealing than they are making the community better that it slows down the creativity of the community, forcing other creators to reinvent the wheel, so to speak, because they aren't allowed to base their work on that of others.
- The charging is often done under false pretenses and over and above what is required to meet the pretense.
- The charging is often done for work that is using copyrighted content by someone who isn't the creator.
- There is no way to evaluate the true quality of the product before purchase, and there are no refunds or recourse for the customer who is unsatisfied with the product they bought.
- Charging plainly violates the EULA, which, while it may not be strictly legally tenable (arguable), is still a social contract.

I request that everyone abandon the 'Because it's a hobby, you shouldn't charge for it' position. It's illogical and doesn't hold weight when applied to similar activities. There are plenty of other, better arguments for why charging for CC is ethically wrong, and I'm sure my reasons are only a few of what is out there.

Of that, there is no doubt.

Don't fall into the trap that just because credit is given, everything is OK.

I wish that were the case, because it would make my IRL job a hell of a lot easier.

As for TSR, it has just occurred to me that TSR's big dream in life might be to get purchased by EA.  I am sure that TSR represents themselves as providing only services, the storage, indexing, retrieval, packaging, and downloading of Sims 2 content.  They own none of the content, so they are not selling content, they merely provide access to it and charge for the service.  I suppose that flies better when all of the content is free some of the time rather than what they are doing now, but still, selling that tech to EA might be what they are dreaming about.

could be.  But from what I have read, EA monitors them "very closely" already, but only to make sure they arn't violating anything... though it has been mused that EA gave TSR special license to sell those things, which would be within their right.

I think that if EA had any interest in TSR they would have bought it already.

EA is a big company.  From the time they decide to purchase TSR to the time that it actually happens could be a very very long time.

It is possible that TSR has considerable work that they must do to prove that they own the web software they would be selling.  This might require TSR to replace code or hunt down license holders.  EA would not purchase TSR without certification that TSR has the right to sell to EA.  This includes both copyright and patent searches.

But, I doubt that EA is interested in TSR.  That is not to say that TSR is not interested in EA being interested in TSR.

It is cool news to hear that EA might be closely monitoring TSR, but it would be nice to know if that was really happening or just some theory turned 'fact'.  This new no-free-FA policy might have a short lifespan if EA decides it crosses the line.

It wouldn't be in EA's interests to purchase TSR, the whole point is to be selling a game that appears popular enough to have engendered large collections of custom content and fansites.  It would be counterproductive to buy them up!   However I can understand why they would have given them special support (not necessarily financial) to get started as they didn't know there would be so many others started.  Most games only seem to have one or two large ones and few small ones.

If that is the case, why don't they remove content at the request of the uploader?  When submitting to TSR, you give them permission to keep your files to do with as they please.

A shoddy service they provide too, looking at the bug report page, over 50% unfixed.  http://www.thesimsresource.com/bugs/list.php Some going back nearly a month.

Unrequited love... tragic. ;)

Yeah, well, my answer to that is don't upload to TSR.  

If someone uploads anyway and they keep doing it, then shut up about it.  :)

Those people get no sympathy from me...

I don't remember being informed that the content I submitted there was there forever, even if they at some point barred me from their site.

Whether that was there when you submitted or not is unknown.

That's even worse than the Exchange!

There isn't much of a difference between what TSR writes and what EA writes, but EA is more upfront about it.

You can at least delete your own uploads from the exchange.

Can you?  You can make it so that they are not available to other Exchange users and not visible to you.  That is not the same as actually deleting all copies of the content that EA might have stashed away.

There are no provisions in the EA terms for revoking the rights assigned when uploading, quite the opposite, actually, so I cannot see how deleting the content would ensure that EA could not continue to do what they please.

In actual fact, when you delete you may be physically deleting everything but any disaster recovery backups that were made during the routine operation of the Exchange.  But, legally, EA is not required to delete anything.  If they are deleting things, it is a kindness, most likely borne out of a lack of desire to hold onto everything.  For that reason, I expect that when you delete something off the exchange, it is actually deleted, except for disaster recovery backups, if any.

Past behavior indicates that EA does not sneak around in this manner.

Well, as far as intellectual property and copyright, according to Australian law, which is where I am, intellectual property recognition doesn't apply to artistic works, and any artistic design work must be copyrighted in order to allow for a legal protection of ones' rights.  

Retaining copyright also allows you to license others to reproduce and modify that work (which is what EA is doing for cc in the EULA).  I would like to see others try to license (a bit like pyramid selling there  :lol: )

As for the whole intellectual property argument, it's the same in my field - when I write a journal article, someone else can quote and reference me (if they don't reference me it's plagiarism) but I can't stop anyone from using my work - that's what research is built on.  And I certainly can't stop someone in a library from reading or photocopying my work (under the fair use policy) - there could be millions of copies all over the world of my work, and I can't do anything about it, unless they plagiarise (which just ruins your academic career, and little more).  Nor do I want to do anything about it.

I'm sorry I can't give the whole world wide definition, but I'll try to familiarise myself with international treaties and law.

That's some very interesting comparisons! Thank you for pointing that out.

That was a whole lot of words for something that boiled down to "I would agree."

Wordiness is not a virtue. ;)

Oddly enough, that does not matter.  What matters is where it was copyrighted, not what the copyright law says in Australia.



Yeah, but it was worth it to get the point across that just because EA does something nice now does not necessarily mean that they will always do it.  They are entitled to do something different.

And, saying something like ""EA may not always let you delete your own stuff from the Exchange." isn't accurate since they might let you delete and STILL use the content.

Conspiracy theorists demand these things, I am happy to provide them. :)

No, what matters is that in Australia at least, the 'intellectual property' doesn't hold one ounce of water.  As for copyright, under the terms of the Berne convention for international treaties, one must have the exclusive right to publish the works - nobody does until EA says so.

In order to show breach, the site must show that they have had their economic interests damaged as a result of publication, which if the poll about "do you or would you subscribe" is of any interest, shows that it doesn't.

Also note, for creators in general - that they have the right to make the cc rules, and that is recognised:



So wonderful creators like the ones who visit here are protected under copyright treaties - ghanima, nouk, liegonsheit (sp?), kathy etc..

I agree  :wink:

I'm very involved in other communities that create derivative works.  Sims' content is also a derivative work.  It is based on, and contains some copywritten intellectual property that does not belong to the creator.

In all these other communities (writing, graphics, art), most people give credit to all their sources.  I very rarely see people crediting the photosources for their photo-based skins, and we've seen proof that many meshes are converted for Sims use from higher poly meshes, with the original creator uncredited.  Hell, most fanfic and fanart have disclaimers saying things like "I don't own Final Fantasy, Star Trek, or Harry Potter," even though it's obvious, but I rarely see anyone individually giving props to EA.  And respecting them.

People also only charge for physical works of art.  That's it.  You don't charge for fanfic, you don't charge people to look at your drawing online, and you certainly don't throw a fit if someone has downloaded it to their computer for their own use.  Oh no, I've had people print out physical copies of my fanfic, they must be dirty rotten STEALERS.

So it seems like most people who create in the Sims community 1) can't give credit where credit is due and 2) can't wrap their heads around fair use.  They also don't respect EA, the creator of the game.  The EULA and changes to Bodyshop, along with the Exchange shows that the creator of the game wants you to share.

So why should I respect people that can't do these very simple things to respect others?  In some ways, how the booty here is posted gives more credit where credit is due than most of the CC creators do with theirs!

Are we still arguing w/ half-coherent minions-on-a-mission? I mean really, it's just the same points being reiterated. You'd have better luck talking to a machine. At least w/ machines you could program some different responses. :roll:

I can't be bothered reading all of this thread, because it's just more of the same old tired arguments.  But I was curious as to whether anyone has heard of the doctrine of acquiescence?  IMHO, Maxis/EA have long since lost their rights to enforce the EULA since they've taken no action against paysites for a number of years, given their silence and lack of action against these sites, and indeed have condoned them by their association with TSR.  The same can't be said for this site, given the very short time it has existed.

Just throwing the cat among the pigeons here folks, I don't care either way.

if that's the case then they also promote filesharing by including meshs with sims packaged using bodyshop *hmmmm*

I like it best this way :)  They have the right to charge, and we have the right to redistribute free of charge.

You are a retarded assfucker and probably just as crazy as the real baby jane. Good day to you sir.

I agree!

Does intellectual property exist? Yes. It exists, however, game modders do not have the rights to their intellectual property in the cases of games such as The Sims 2.  Why not? Because the intellectual property was created for a specific environment which has first rights to licensing.

When a teacher in a school district writes a play to be performed by the school district, that teacher does not get the licensing rights, the school district does. This is because their intellectual property was created for a specific environment (the school district).

Sims 2 mods are created for the Sims 2 game environment, and therefore the owners of the Sims 2 (EA) has first rights to licensing.


In addition to this, to be able to argue intellectual property in a court of law, you must be able to prove authorship. Just stating "I created this" is not proof enough. Burden is on you, the author, to prove authorship.

This is why guilds exist. They provide formal environments to register intellectual property with a serial number, log of ownership, etc. This costs a fee and no two separate individuals may share the same author name.

So even if a Sims 2 creator wanted to sue over intellectual theft and managed to prove EA doesn't have first licensing rights, they'd still require individual registration of each object in question with an appropriate guild. Now then, as far as I know, there is no "Game Modders Guild."  Without this, it's impossible to prove who authored something first, when, and who actually did it.

Without a guild, your intellectual property means squat. It's just a term to make you feel better and to help you pursuade people to respect your work. However, no one is required to respect it without that guild registration and legal preceding.

Many of these artists sell copyrighted stuff, did they buy the rights to do this?
Lets see:
DISNEY-example Peggys kids room with Disney stuff, EXNEM's Disney toys, Movie Posters, what about the Pac Man stuff and the arcade games...

Theres a long list, but if they didn't pay for the rights to use these commercially, they have committed a copyright violation besides Maxis eula violation.

Clearly, I need to elaborate on my position.  Renatus, I absolutely agree with you.  I make jewelry in my spare time and do indeed sell some.  I would call it a hobby, not a job.  But I don't do it to feed myself or pay my rent.  If I did, THEN it would be my job.

I am not saying that one shouldn't charge for CC because it is done as a hobby.  I am saying that "people have to support their families" is NOT a valid reason for charging for it.  I think that is also what Blue was saying: this is a hobby, not a job, and hobbies don't pay the landlord.  I don't make my jewelry to turn a profit; Renatus probably doesn't crochet to make money.  We create because it's fun, and we want to share it with others.  If we can sell our work to earn back some of the cost of materials, great.  I think it is absolutely ridiculous to suggest that we shouldn't charge for our work because we made it for fun.  The same is true for the modders and 3D/graphic artists in our community.

To me, the difference is that there isn't a large corporation asking us in the form of a legal document not to offer our creations commercially.

Hopefully I've cleared up my position a little.  Basically, I'm just sick to death of the "I gotta make ends meet here!" argument some pro-paysite people use.

That's my position too, just to help keep it clear. Like I said, if people were only accepting donations (and not requiring them), I'd be happy to send them some money if I liked their stuff.

Yeah, totally clear. You make perfect sense and I agree with your clarified position 100%. I spoke up because it wasn't the first time I'd seen [what looked like] that opinion on here. Since I've run into people who DO think that anything a person does for fun, or does that's artistic, shouldn't be changed for (and oh it's a kick in the pants when some little brat is telling you that you should hand over your paintings to them because pretty things should be free), I thought I'd better say something to disabuse people of that notion, if they actually held it. :D

Well, I have to say, I like helping people out. Whether it be with the freely available content on my own site or by posting helpful information in a forum, I try to help whenever I can.

So if I can help out at a forum, no matter where the location, I'll do so. :) I'm registered at pretty much all major forums and some smaller ones in the sims 2 community and try to post occasionally at all of them. Except at the BBS. Bleh.

Anyhow, I feel I can help people out as a mod there. That's pretty much the reason, aside from the friendships I've made there. Plus, I honestly don't pay a whole lot of attention to what happens on the site side of things. They're two separate entities in my eyes.

I'd show that little brat a kick in the pants!  Anyway, I'm glad you spoke up, because I didn't realize until you objected that that's how my first post sounded.



I'm glad it is, because when I reread my post I was kinda putting words in your mouth.  Sorry about that lol!

Actually, that is categorically not true.

I am in Australia and work in the Arts industry and am very familiar with both Australian and international law as it applies to artistic and research work.

I think you've confused "fair use" with "ok to use what you want" (a very common mistake that leads to the sort of plagiarism qualification that paysites use).

Your point:



From the Australian Copyright Council website (which incorporates changes of the new 2006 legislation brought about by our FTA with the US): http://www.copyright.org.au/information/basics.htm



ie, artistic works,

and



ie, copyright is automatic in Australia on said artisic works, provided they're the original work of the author. Thsi is in line with world copyright agreements and also applies in EURO and US jurisdictions (the differences between the jurisdictions apply to how it's enforced, and length of copyright rather than "how" something is copyright).

Fair use, as you said, covers all articles or what-have you, but only up to a certain point, presuming you are the current copyright holder and did not sell your article's copyright to a magazine along with an article (which is the usual contract format).

If people are photocopying your work wholesale in libraries, then you can, in fact, if you choose to, take action. However, in the case of research articles, most authors would choose not to, as we do what we do to further research in our respective fields. But that doesn't negate the right to do so if we choose to, and the decision not to take action is a choice allowed to use under copyright law. As is the choice to act.

Libraries pay fees to the copyright council to cover such useage that is then disseminated to authors. These fees are included in author royalties for novels. Articles are different: they're given to the magazines themselves. The magazine has paid for the article so copyright (depending on the agreement with the author) has often reverted to the magazine for a specified amount of time befiore it reverts back to the author.

It also should be noted that libraries are not allowed to "rent" items. Their licensing applies to lending only.

Australian "Fair use" covers articles for the purpose of review, criticism and advertising only (to a maximum of 10% of the total if an article or 2.5% for a longer work). It doesn't allow for wholesale useage, and all quotations must be properly credited with the name of the author, the date and place of publication and the author's copyright license poilcy (if applicable).

Renatus wrote:


Which sounds just fine until you realise there is a serious difference between the two examples. "Hobby" or not is irrelevant. Whether someone is getting paid for a hobby or not is only relevant to tax law.

The relevancy for whether someone has the right to be paid for a hobby is covered by copyright law in the most jurisdictions and is figured by who actually owns the resultant product.

In your case, your hobby can be sold because the resulting finiahed product is owned by you. When you bought the materials, you entered into a tacit agreement with the manufacturer of those materials that you could do whatever you wanted with those materials, and they do not have a policy that disallows that. You are not breaching anyone's copyright by selling your stuff (assuming they are not well known trade-marked images, in which case the packaging will have anouncements to that effect and selling the product would be illegal).

In the case of TS2, the package fileformat and the resultant package files are owned by Maxis/EA and the EULA you sign by ticking the box when you install the game and clicking on "I agree" (which is a legally signed electronic document in all jurisdictions) clearly states that you cannot make custom content and sell it, and that all resultant package files ("tools and materials") are owned by Maxis.

When you start the hobby of making cc, you have already agreed to this condition by signing this document.

Thus, paysites are in clear breach of the law and may not sell packages.

How good they are or how much time is spent on the content is a moot and irrelevant point. The fact is, paysite owners agreed not to do what they are doing when they filled in that little ticky box and installed the game. The fact that EA is not taking action at present doesn't negate EA's legal right.

To put it another way, how would you feel if someone took your digital images without your permission, put them on a maxis mesh, then uploaded them to a paysite and asked everyone to pay for them? They would be profiting from your work. See the difference?

(Although it could be argued that the so-called pets "bug" where all custom meshes were uploaded with sims made in the pets bodyshop, was an attempt to regain their rights, but I'd never spout conspiracy theories... ;)).

Sorry - I agree with you - merely poor wordage.  Intellectual property doesn't dictate anything about artistic works - that is just copyright, indeed that is where they direct you if you enquire about intellectual property vis a vis artistic works.

The prevailing argument at the moment in the community is not about copyright - which it has been argued that cc cannot retain once it is put into a package file, but rather about intellectual property.  In Australia, therefore, the intellectual property argument holds no water either.

This is why I tend to use the example of fanfiction.
Most people can wrap their minds around the idea that they can't (or at least shouldn't) sell something they wrote involving someone else's characters or plot, no matter how much effort and creativity they put into it.

Which was what I was getting at. Saying 'paysites shouldn't exist because no one is allowed to make money off of a hobby' is ridiculous because it focuses on the nature of the activity as a leisure activity and ignores the actual issue at hand, as you outlined it.

about the hobby thing:

I just want to add that if it is a hobby, why are people spending so much time bitching about it and so little time doing it? If it's not fun anymore, don't do it.

What I find interesting is the sense of entitlement that exists with paysite creators. Its getting less and less "bandwidth" and more and more "I made this so I deserve to be paid for it, cause it took hours .

BTW - Blue - Inside info:

Sapphire Sims recently tried to entice Windkeeper away from TSR, but they couldn't come close to affording her, she is definitely keen on the bucks. Also if TSR really really likes a creator they will offer upto US $200 for them to close their old site. This may not apply to everyone, like Suzy's not exclusive, so maybe they don't deem her worthy of as much money. But greed plays bigtime in some FA's motivation.

Hmm....I already knew some FA's were not making as much money as others.  But "they couldn't come close to affording her"?  I wonder just wnat TSR is paying her.

I know people who are somewhat tight with Ginger, and her words were "we couldn't come close to offering her what TSR does."

Windkeeper was willing to move, for the right price.

Hmm very interesting.  Thanks for the inside info!

All those hours eh?  It takes me only, what?, a year to write a book.

I've had a recurring sub with TSR for years, but cancelled it when it was reported that the paysites were divulging names, etc. of their PayPal customers. I would speculate that they might have lost other subscribers because of that.

If you're talking about that whiny ass Forward Motion's I agree.

Honestly, I bet they didn't lose that many over the paypal thing.  I heard in another forum something about rose and paypal, but NO ONE in the forum knew what the hell had happened (Britts Love Couture forum).  When everyone asked she was completly mum about it)  I didn't know the details till I came here.  I bet you MOST people never knew it happened.

Good example of this is when Blue posted the link comparing Carla Niven to Rat Productions.  I generally felt like Rat Productions was a relativly famous site, but lots of people posted in that thread thanking blue for a site they had never visited.  I was thinking "Had they NEVER been to another sites link page before!?"  So, its very easy to be out of the loop about stuff like that.  Especially if the only person you get your news from is TSR, S2C or the BBS.

I have a custom content listing of over 225 sites, free and pay, so I think I am going to have heard of some sites that no one else has.  I also check out Bines and other sites like that every day.

Is there a place where such a list of freesites can be seen?

I beleive Blue Soup said that the list he has, has free and pay on it :D

lol...

I'm a girl dammit!

:lol:

*shakes head* Nah, looks like you've been demoted to boy. :(

Looks like Ble soup posted the list up in the Treasure chest. Daily I check BSR updates. i use to use Showcase sims, till they stopped.

Alright, this thread is about to veer in yet another new direction (at least if I can help it lol :twisted:) because.... because.... cos I feel like it, dammit!

No, seriously, I can't find a better discussion for this and I don't like starting threads. :oops:

I was poring through BlueSoup-the-Girl's links (I wuv yoo, Bloo!) and found Adult-Sims.com... and was confronted on the front page by this "news article":



Further, I found a "Jobs" link in their menu, and went clicky on it, and confronted this:


For those who don't read German: The first job description is for a tech support person/webmaster type job.  Max. 15 hours/month, pay 8 euros/hour (I'm American, don't have a euro key).  The second is for a creating job that requires at least 2 new clothing items a week and pays 30 euros/month plus a free Gold Membership.  The second is similar but requires 5 new clothing items/week and pays 75/month plus the Gold Membership.


I'm really tempted to get a temp membership to the site and leave a comment under the articles saying "great... but this is illegal..."

Wow, if Pescado were to stoop to making tacky porno stuffs, he could really clean up, under that policy.

I KNOW... and think how much twojeffs could make with his casual romance material!

Sorry :lol:

Ya know, people who do the paysites and up the fee and reduce the content are why I like to wear steel-toed combat boots... The give one hell of a crushing kick to the nads, if you do it just right. I have a lot of practice from using them on two ex-husbands... *bemused look* Of course, folks who do paysites period are why I keep the boots...

Necromancy is bad, m'kay?

Is it necromancy to kick someone in the nads? I suppose it would be if they had gotten rid of them... I dunno...

:shock:

I will not get nekkid with TSR.  :roll:

It's bear, "bear with us". One of my top ten grammar / spelling hot button peeves.

 :x