PMBD

18 February I visited the site http://www.muranomobilia.com/ and only one set were linked to TSR. Today, all the sets were gone, he linked all of them to TSR!
Although this is not a big surprise (everyone knows that there are some people that after tasting money starts to be senile forgetting some basic principles, but that’s other story), the interesting thing is that the sets located in the TSR database have less size than the originals who were located in muranomobilia.
For example, with the Mono kitchen set, the files in muranomobilia site were in size as follow:
murano_mono_airpump.package    360.753
murano_mono_chair.package           176.494
murano_mono_counter01.package   485.265
murano_mono_counter02.package   521.356
murano_mono_counter03.package   531.801
...
And in TSR they are only:
murano_mono_airpump.package    190.459
murano_mono_chair.package       31.550
murano_mono_counter01.package   63.478
murano_mono_counter02.package   311.753
murano_mono_counter03.package   84.676
…
(and the murano_mono_collection.package, size 15.781 is now missing)

And this can only mean one of two things:
1º - The creator is a dumb ass and don’t know what the f*** is doing. (because I don’t believe in miracles and I don’t understand how the hell is it possible to reduce a 3d model size so much without reducing polygon number or textures definition thus losing render quality, unless the error was a prior wrong modeling now corrected what again makes him a dumb ass);
Or
2º - TSR’s not only making money with the Maxis, EA work and property rights but also taking all the sims community by stupid nerds who don’t give value to quality by imposing size limits to the creator artists that work for them, and selling files that are now only a shadow of what they were.
Anyway, the thing is that the files are now much smaller, and I think that what is happening with the murano collection also is happening with other artists works, what could result in a reduction of the overall quality in the community creations taking in account that TSR is one of the biggest community sites. Moreover, the shame is that every passing day, more and more (some good) artists fall to their smelling money.

Or Murano's using something like the Compressorizer, which certainly has the ability to reduce file sizes by large amounts. Plus, I don't really think that you should assume that a larger file size automatically means a better piece of work; much of the time those larger file sizes are much more indicative of a poorer quality product and lack of skill (e.g. bloated poly counts and unnecessarily large textures) than a streamlined smaller file would be. As I haven't seen Murano's new files and meshes compared to the old ones, I can't tell you if he/she is actually going in and making changes to the meshes (although I do doubt it), but again you shouldn't assume that poly reduction of meshes means a badly made or clumsy piece of work. Frankly, a Sims 2 creator actually going in and making changes to files that were likely overly poly heavy in the first place is kind a good thing in my opinion (when I examine Sims 2 meshes on my own, it's usually "n-side" central), although making all of those sets pay is obviously the work of a greedy ass.

I agree with you, but assuming that he did a good work in the first place (I do not even want to take the contrary in possibility), I think the files are too smaller compared with the first ones; and besides, the old ones worked great, so if this was a choice between size and graphics, I don’t see why so much necessity in reducing them so much.
Anyway, every day is a good day to say something fucked up against TSR!    ;D

Maybe, but I actually doubt he's made any changes to the original files at all (maybe later I'll take a look and compare old and new, but I really, really doubt it), and is likely just compressing the files now. Here's a link to the Compressorizer (http://www.djssims.com/index.php?category=1&subcat=5), which is what I suspect has actually happened to these files.


Yes, indeed!  :D

Tanks for the link Mando! :)

Some tome ago Teko/Murano/Cedric removed all of his stuff from Reflex where he uploaded before he had his own site. Most of them have been free sets.
I am still waiting for him to upload these sets to TSR as well. I am not sure if he'll do this, on the one hand he might be ashamed of the quality compared to today's standards, but on the other hand I cannot believe that Teko would ignore this chance to make more money. And we all know that he is a money hungry a**.

You don't know what you're talking about, and you're insulting those of us who will actually take the time to go back and improve old objects.

Here's how it works: You have a one-tile deco object, that you originally gave a 512x512 texture map because the texture is very detailed. The package will be around 360 KB. Later you decide that it can make do with a smaller texture map, so you reduce it to 256x256. Just doing that reduces the size to 88 KB. Get it? From 360 KB to 88 KB. 270 KB just by changing the texture map size.

And another one: I've just finished making a sofa. I cloned it from the expensive basegame sofa. At first the package was 1.4 MB. Then I started cleaning it up a little bit. The only thing I did was take out all the files and parts related to the shadows (because I'm an idiot and can never find out how to do a fitting shadow, so I just delete them). That brought the size down to 890 KB. Get it? From 1400 KB to 890 KB. 510 KB less just by taking out the shadows.

Saying there's no need to reduce the size of the packages as much as possible is pure crap. Packages should be as small as possible. The less MB in your Downloads folder, the shorter load time and the smoother game play. Show me one simmer who doesn't want that.

I don't know what Teko did to reduce his file sizes, but changing the meshes is the least likely. You really have to take out a LOT of vertices/faces before it affects the size of the package. It is all the other stuff that bloats it. And whatever else you can say about Teko, critizising him for taking the time to slim down old packages is just not on.



I dare you to call ME a dumbass because some of my early objects could have been cleaned up a little or had minor faults before I served them up for download.

ETA: Typos

How about his Moune:  you are awesome and go back and streamline your impressive objects.  (I love your kitchen sets and such.  they are full of win!)  You then put the awesome streamlined less bloaty file up for download.  For free. 

Murano has a big bloaty file up for free download.  He(?) then fixes and streamlines and removes bloat, but only for TSR, instead of doing it for the love of the content. 

That's more what irritates me.  Not that it's smaller now, but that it couldn't have been fixed up all pretty for free before. It's the principle of the thing that has me irritated. 

Moune, you can't even be compared to Murano.
You're full of win, he's full of shit. :D

*shakes head* Greedy fuck.

I've never seen the Compressorizor shrink files by that much, at least not with my stuff. I'm probably wrong (Lord knows it happens all the damn time!), but I suspect that something other than the Compressorizer is at work. I'm going to listen to Moune, because I don't really know anything about making objects (I err on the side of knowledge and experience, not Sinthe and stoopidness).

Ha, ha! Thanks Moune for being more passionate and willing to argue that point than I was last night ;D. I completely agree with you here, a creator who is willing to fix their messy work by cleaning up polys and reducing texture sizes is not someone to be derided. I wish it was actually the norm in the Sims 2 community, but it definitely is not, and leads people to believe things like the original poster.

I've seen the Compressorizer shrink things down by a ton when I've run my own files through it, so I do believe it is possible or perhaps Murano is using some other sort of compression method. It's all speculative though, unless someone is willing to open up the old and new files and compare them to see if any changes have really been made. 

Well, maybe I was not clear enough, but first Moune, if you know so much about modeling to start giving lessons to those you don’t know, you should also know that reducing a texture definition is the same as reducing quality (ofcourse it saves lots of size, duhh!).
So I don’t understand what you are trying to mean by saying: “You have a one-tile deco object, that you originally gave a 512x512 texture map because the texture is very detailed. The package will be around 360 KB. Later you decide that it can make do with a smaller texture map, so you reduce it to 256x256. Just doing that reduces the size to 88 KB. Get it?”
I get it, I just do not get why you are agreeing with me, because (one more time) reducing definition can be translated by reducing quality, and that’s why a texture pack of Hi-rez Textures is so expensive.

But well, I don’t want to start a fight unless you say that paying for stuff is great  ;D, what I first was trying to say is that it is impossible, unless you don’t know what you are doing (assuiming that when you first create the object you left lots of things “unpolished” before export), to reduce so much the the size without take something, wich means that or the textures were reduced (as you said may happened) diminishing the render quality or the poligons, shadows, or others were handled now with more care (witch means they weren’t first time), and know we are getting to the point.

In all of this, the point is that everyone knows that to fail is human, so if the objects were with errors (I prefer to call it that way, especially if you are a pro there are errors that are not acceptable, if you are not, they still are errors for me specially if you are intended to receive money for your work) and them because he was with more free time, or someone warned him about he decided to correct them. That is a wonderful thing to take as an example, but the point is as referred by Chemistrycourtney, why “He(?) then fixes and streamlines and removes bloat, but only for TSR, instead of doing it for the love of the content”.

Two or three days ago there were no problems with the files, at least not so significant to make them deserve a revision, and now simply there are?!?

And as for Teko, I think he is a wonderful artist, maybe not so good modeling, but with great art tast and great composition notions (it’s enough to see the packs he arrange), so I WANT TO BLAME TSR FOR ALL THE EVIL IN THE WORLD ( :P, and only joking, in the end, maybe not for all the evil in the world, but for using the very same principles that led to all the evil in the world, – GREED – is one of them for example).

In addition, for those who do not see a big difference between high and low-resolution textures, go see the site http://www.evermotion.org/ (http://www.evermotion.org/) or http://www.doschdesign.com/d_start/ (http://www.doschdesign.com/d_start/) for Pro models and textures.
Of course, they are with polygon numbers and texture resolutions that make them unsuitable for the game, but you can use Cinema 4D compressor to reduce polygons and them do some polishing work; and for the textures just open photoshop, create a canvas with the pixels size you desire and them scale to feat, and save the texture in the desired format. Ofourse taking in account the relation between final usage scale and texture definition (what I think was what Moune was trying to explain me).

Tsu.. arguing from a non-mesher point of view here. Big bloaty files are bad because there's only so much detail needed for a tiny environment like Sims. Moune is right, superdetail is totally wasted if the object is too tiny to render it.

And then there's the Graphics card/game lag issue.. There is absolutely no point doing the most highly detailed beautiful object in the world if something half the size which renders much more quickly in the game looks pretty much the same in-game when you load it. The object is made to be looked at and used in the Sims environment, not just ooed and aahed at in preview pics.

Moune, I haven't been through to your site due to lack of time but with you guys explaining that they're nice and streamlined I'm going there now..  :)

Obviously, you're going to get a higher quality texture with a larger file size, Tsu, but usually (especially for in-game use) this is not appropriate or necessary. As you've noted yourself, huge texture sizes mean huge lag when playing with them in-game. I disagree with you however that taking an originally (probably overly) large Sims 2 texture file size and scaling it down necessarily means an appreciable drop down in the quality of the texture (as in turning a 512x512 to a 256x256). A skilled texture artist and uv mapper will be able to work with a smaller file size and can make work that is almost equally detailed and well thought out as would be possible with a larger size simply by being smart about how they use their space and by using tricks to resize and adjust the image.

I saw some examples of textures from a James Bond game some years ago of the textures created for the random enemies; I was amazed at how well detailed they were (belts, buckles, lacing and all other small details were very sharp and perfectly included), and then was even more amazed by the fact that these textures were only 256x256 for an entire character! In some of my own larger projects when I've noticed lag, I've cut texture sizes down by half and haven't been bothered by a huge quality difference (not to mention appreciating the giant boost of speed I get from a minor sacrifice). So, a high quality image at a small file size is very, very achievable. Oftentimes, I've also noticed in the Sims 2 textures I've opened (although I will admit that this happens less so with furniture) that huge chunks of the space are taken up just by the invisible, alphaed parts of the texture. The creators are making things harder for themselves by giving up half of their workspace to something that will end up being invisible in the end! Think of how much more detail could be squeezed in if the edges of the UVs were matched up and no space was wasted on what is essentially dead space. 

If those numbers are correct, then the files were simply run through the Compressorizer.  I know this because I had those original, giant files and ran them through the Compressorizer myself a few months ago to put them in my game.  My files are the same size as those on TSR.  And they look just as good in-game now as they ever did.  This is why the Compressorizer rocks.

Wow, thanks very much for those kind words. I'm sure you all know that I heartily agree that the slimmed down packages should have stayed free and never should have been uploaded to TSR. Nothing should ever be uploaded to TSR in my opinion! I'd volunteer to take a look at the packages to solve the mystery as to what was done to them, but I've just sent my computer away (again) and am currently on a little old thing that won't run neither the game nor SimPE. So it'll have to wait until the new one arrives.

Saraswati, do drop by, but please be warned that some of the oldest sets still needs revisiting. Basically I continue to find stuff that can be left out or reduced in size, so the newer the set the leaner you can be sure the files are.

Tsu, while I'm definetely no Numenor or Ignorant Bliss you bet I know enough about object making to start giving lessons to people I don't know. What you fail to understand is that an object package is much more than a 3D model and a texture. For instance when taking the shadow off my sofa I deleted 1 TXMT file, 1 MMAT file, 1 GMDC file, 4 or 5 OBJ files and 1 texture map, which in this case was tiny and therefore didn't take up much space. My 3D mesh stayed at 1922 faces and I've left the same two 'non-shadow' texture maps of 512x512, but I still saved 510 KB of your hard drive space.

However, when I first started out making objects I didn't know any of that was possible. I also had no idea what size texture map I'd need for anything or how shadows and material definitions and CRES files and a ton more stuff worked. Hence why my older objects could benefit from a 'renovation'. I expect every other creator find themselves in the same stuation. You seem to expect that we all start out as all-knowing experts who make perfect packages from the start. Not so, my friend.

As you point out Teko's files were fine a few days ago. You're also saying it's bad that he has made them even better (i.e. smaller), and that is a crap thing to say, no matter if he's a pay or a free creator. Why he has chosen to do it now I can't tell you, but I have an idea. Personally I still have several older files that work fine, but that could do with a clean-up. Unfortunately I'm always occupied making new stuff so I tend to forget about them and just let them sit there quietly on the server. But if for instance I ever had to reupload them I would most likely take the opportunity to improve and clean them up. Seems to me that's exactly what Teko has done.

In any case he just saved you more than 1 MB of disk space and you're slamming him for it. Why don't you go and download something nice to fill up that 1 MB instead of complaining about people who do you a favour?

One last thing, although others have already pointed it out: Reducing the size of your texture map does not necessarily reduce quality - at least not in any visible way. Rather a large detailed texture is completely wasted on a small object - which again is a waste of space. I've seen stuff like plates and glasses with 1024x1024 texture maps. Madness! Reduce that to 128x128 and you won't notice any difference, but you'll propably save close to 1 MB space for each package. Incidentially making your texture map in a lower resolution might save you a few KB's, but nothing compared to what you save by simply using a smaller texture map.

Moune I went and downloaded the whole kitchen with the dark wood.. :) very practical peice of furniture that one, the Maxis kitchens always feel like they're designed by boys, somehow..

And I can tell they're effective sized files from just downloading them.

One of the best efforts I've ever seen when it came to an effective size and aesthetics balance would have to have been Lethe's low poly grass.. I used it when I did my Hippy Commune lot. It looks absolutely fantastic in-game even if you use a bit of it, and it doesn't make your game lag. At all.  ;D http://www.modthesims2.com/showthread.php?t=202811 and that grass is between 50-144 poly a peice, which is a marvel of efficiency and being very, very kind to people with older pcs.

really pees me off when you have old files and you grab them at the booty as there updated, however murano changes the names of the package files for instance takes the name off teko and replaces with murano, i ended up with 2 sets of the lumeo bathroom.

hugs


Cheeky (Pavs Partner)

As to WHY Murano moved all his/hers stuff to pay and so forth.. well more than likely he/she knows they are in hot demand.
So you could pressume they went 100% pay because they realised they could eaily make a lot of money with CC/TSR but you could also easily pressume that Murano didn't want to create anymore, but money is a great incentive isn't it?
And we all know Thomas can do one thing well.. and that is Push.

I am not by any means supporting his paysite decision or even justifing it. I can just see how the monopoly that is TSR can affect creators. Murano is in so much demand that even if they wanted to quit there is so much pressure not to.
I don't know the full story, all I know is that TSR sucks.

They turn a simple hobby into a work horse and treat creators like meal tickets. Come on.. this is hardly a news breaking revelation.

Actually it is possible to reduce filesize by making a smaller texture without compromising on quality.  If everything is mapped at 1024 the first time round, you're not actually reducing quality by reducing that to 512. You'd be reducing the filesize easily by making the image smaller and increasing the dpi.  Sometimes there's other little bits and peices too - taking out erroneous little bits and peices, if you change the file considerably. You can reduce the filesize if the first mesh is ridiculously high poly though - I took 100k from a file for that.

Well, like I said before, I think it's grand when things are made smaller, less bloat, efficient, and look nice in my game.  Take things moune makes for example.  They are just lovely, and yet, no lag!  I also have a grand affection for all of calalily's houses and beddings.  They are full of win. 

If they say they can reduce the size of a file and not lose any integrity to it, I will believe them.  And I'll be glad of it. 

Now, If they'd said they reduced the size of a file, but only for moneys, I'd be forced to call them greedy bitches.  Also, as a quasi-sidenote, doesn't the compresserizor just remove filesize in your folder, but has to uncompress to run in the game?