PMBD

This is my first post. So really quickly: I've been playing this game forever, and I have been involved in the Sims community as a silent witness since the community began. I have seen bitch fights as early as 1999 (alt.games.the-sims) and as recent as here and now, And god how I enjoy watching a bitch fight, it sweetens my rum! But I personally never really felt the NEED to bitch or even participate. Until now.

September 2006, we are going back 1 whole year. I stupidly bought the donation pack from Holy Simoly, I was desperate for new kitchen sets that did not resemble leggo blocks, and their stuff was nice. I KNOW it was nice because I had emailed one of the creators about just purchasing the 50's fridge and the fridge ONLY and inquired about the cost. She was very lovely, and actually said "Dee, it's cool! Here HAVE the fridges! You don't have to pay a cent! It's so nice to hear wonderful feedback! Don't forget to tell me how they tested!" My jaw dropped and my eye misted behind my eyepatch. SO sweet. So I decided...screw it, I want a new kitchen and the fridges were so lovely and tested well, so I donated. And donated again. I donated for ALL of the donation packs. I was addicted to them, I thought... what a bunch of lovely people! MY god... was a sucker.... :shock:
So it's September 2007 and I have Bon Voyage in my mitts and I click something and the game installs fresh anew and I lose all my downloads and neighborhoods. Arr! Why don't I still back up? Because I'm masochist I guess. So I go back to my Sim D/L journal, and check out all the sets that I had downloaded that were pay.  And here comes the plot thickener..
I had found out about this site/board from one of your more popular members who nudged me into the right direction, after I had "sensed" your presence. So I replenished my collection as I saw fit.
Arr Matey. Cheers for that.
But then when it came to the Holy Simoly sets, I couldn't find the Seasons Comp Tranquility fridge or if it is here in the booty it was my poor eyesight that prevented me from seeing it, so I bit the bullet and emailed Holy Simoly for the fridges telling them that I had paid for the first mesh and even had the free Seasons upgrade back when they were distributing it as a freebie, and now wanted them again because I.do.not.back.up.
Ha! You know what they said? "That was for a limited time only and No you can't have them because we cannot find your name in our accounts."
Esqueeze me? Accounts? F-YOU! I brought it fair and square! So I sent them all of the pay pal receipts, for ALL of the donation packs even through it said Donation pack 2 for two of the receipts, which will tell you that their "accounts" are messed up to begin with. And the stupid monkey STILL said that "your name is not in our accounts... BUT because you provided evidence that you have purchased from us, we can give them to you this time. But just so you know.... your name still isn't on here"
And I'm like...this isn't a retail shop sweetheart. This is you leeching off a gaming community that already pays through the nose for the privilege of playing the game. What happened to the nice girl I talked to a year ago? I played hardball and told her she should check the accounts again if she wanted to, but I didn't care. I had my fridges.
Funny how people and things change, once money exchanges, isn't it?

And all for the love of Fridges! I just really wanted to share that and to illustrate the point... that custom content should be FREE because it offers a PRICELESS connection that BINDS a community. You throw money into it, and shit hits the fan. :evil:

BTW I love this site! Sorry if this was too long! :)

Unfortunately, you will find a lot of sites that do this very same thing.  You are always suspected to be a pirate or they are trying to weasel more money out of you.

I have never purchased the Donation Packs from Holy Simoly.  So, sorry you had the problem.  And good first post for a noob.  That is the kind of info that is good to know for those who continue to subscribe to various sites.

I'm torn on this one...I disagree with paysites, but I can see why HS were reluctant to take you at your word - I'm not calling you a liar here, but merely pointing out that everyone knows that paypal mockups are shit easy to create and so now people tend to be wary about people providing them with paypal receipts if they can't find the matching transaction #s...which considering you donated a year ago according to your post, isn't that suprising that they don't still have their copy of the receipt on hand.

I don't think it's so much them being "peggy-esque" and trying to force you into a new donation to get the files on this one (hell, they gave you one of their donation files for free before when you contacted them so I don't think they're vampiric on it) so much as them being wary of getting scammed... *shrugs*

Holy Simoly is losing it's place on my "not-as-evil" paysite list. I think they're a little more money grubbing than I used to think.

deelink: Welcome. Please READ THE FAQ and LURK MOAR. We don't do Introductory threads anywhere but the shiny, happy thread created specifically for that purpose.

Don't start new threads if topics are covered elsewhere.

Love your wit and new pirate enthusiasm, but, again, PLEASE READ THE FAQ and LURK MOAR!!

Okay! Sorry!
I am still stupid when it comes to Forums. Hence why I never really joined one before. And I will just say this...

Custom content should not be treated the same as property. Once that happens, then the grilling begins. I had to give out a lot of personal information to prove that I was saying the truth. I do not believe I should have to do that. Also I expected a little understanding from a site that was VERY understanding in the past. Once money entered it, they went crazy! Where was the community spirit? Am I being a complete twit expecting  anything at all? Perhaps. I understand then I guess.

But you know, I still believe that The Sims 2 was created with the freedom to enable as much custom content as possible, with little fuss. Why do paysites make it so hard? I don't think I will donate again, because I'm not  seen as a Simmer, I'm just felt throught my back pocket.

I thought this could be a separate thread.. but it was just me being silly. Please close it if you like. I go read FAQ now!

if you look at the post, playing devil's advocate here I'd say they're still a "lesser evil" really because the OP did say that shtinky did end up giving the fridge to them anyway and had given them the original 50s fridge they were after all that time ago - not like they were down her throat ala Peggy or Thomas flat out refusing re-downloads without a new sub.

Actually, I don't think there is a thread that could fit this one well without being severely necromanced.  Fridges were mentioned back at the start of Seasons as borked, and still being sold, and how they were still selling borked fridges.

Holy Simoly usually gets praise from people - and regret that it is included.  It has not until now had any bad reports - and is usually included with Numenor's tanning bed as a "regrettable booty file", along with Around the sims, and others.

Yeah, I can see why Holy Simoly will be seen as a highly popular site, I still remember my excitement when I found all their great content.

But isn't it funny how things change? They used to have such a nice website, now it's all gone banner mad. I understand that's because they are being hammered for their content, but t shirts? mugs? Not believing me even when I showed them a receipt? I like being somewhat anon, and I ALWAYS try to support websites that become my favorites because of their community spirit.  And when you get this...
Man I was totally shocked! I don't want for them to be destroyed, I actually want to say to them... do not treat everyone like a dollar! I am not hammering your site so don't worry about bandwidth! I want a 100KB FILE that you can EMAIL ME with ease! Do you see where I'm going with this?
It's barking mad!

Please Holy Simply, liberate yourself! Then you can email your content for free, your reputation will soar and soar and soar, and then you don't have to search your "accounts" and double check IP's and call people liars! ...in a backhanded sort of way...

:twisted:
yesssss I'm paranoid. I'm a pirate.

 :?   you make monkies sound like bad things   :?

 :D     :lol:     :D

Spanks Yaardarm...isn't that what you do with monkeys?

I just have to say that as far as paysites go, it's no wonder they gave you grief. You're lucky you got them at all.
HS is one of the lesser evils, IMO. They have great stuff and tend to atleast update it when the need arises. Plus, now I see that they are also pretty generous for what they are. Thomas would have told you to fuck off, they gave you free stuff and then gave you stuff you lost.
Back up, back up, people! Put it on a disc it take a minute.
So yeah.
I wouldn't cinsider this rude. I actually kind of think that it was nice that they gave you dick.
But as far as it goes, a paysite is a paysite so boo to them anyways...

According to Peter Gabriel, you have to SHOCK the MONKEY (yeah-eah)

(http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u194/MusicalMaven/LOLcatz/shockthemonkey.jpg)

Well, I CANT gripe about the capitalist economical logistics of it all. I am just saying that that type of behavior, kinda makes me sad.  Because you can't really be personable anymore. There is no soul, just money money money.

Everything is about money about exploiting the people to make more money. You like a game and want stuff that I create to make your game better and give it longevity? Then pay me. I guess that reflects real life a little bit too much for my liking.

And I LIKE monkeys :) Just as I like Holy Simoly
but then monkeys would beat about the bush before giving me what I want, now wouldn't they? It's more fun that way
 :wink:

I understand what you're saying and agree with that, honestly.
People can't just be nice for the sake of bieng nice anymore.
Chivalry is dead, I tell you, dead!

Especially since I liked HS for being NICE!
I still think they are nice, it's just that I feel that have been corrupted somehow. Like SimFreaks got corrupted, and TSR which was rotting from the first time it opened it's stinky doors.
I get worried when small sites like that become big. Then they become corporate. And then they get swallowed by TSR.

*shakes fist at TSR* Curr!

This sort of reminds me of a couple little stories...I have a friend that has chimps, as well as monkeys. She does a lot of the Disney movies, etc... when I first picked up my daughter and her baby from the hospital we stopped by there on our way home. So her first hug came from a chimp. But, that chimp did not want to give her back. So when I took her, she slung dung at my friend. I mean plop right in the forehead. lol The way she corrects them is hilarious. She didn't throw it at me because I was still holding the baby and she didn't want to hurt the baby. She wasn't in any danger I was holding her with the chimp, like you do with a younger child. She just sat on my lap with the baby hugging her and smiling. In fact she was a very young chimp herself.

Also, my husband was telling me about a new plant they opened. I could have swore he said someplace in China? I might be wrong on that. But whenever someone comes from the states new, they all pretend like they go outside to eat. Well here comes the monkey's, they want some too. So they'll tell the new person that you have to throw a rock in their direction to scare them off. He said they fall for it everytime. They'll throw a rock and here comes 50 rocks and dung right back at them. hehe Anyway they go in tours of two years. They've asked him to go next, so they were warning him about all the little things. He's not going to take it though, because I won't go. Two years away from my grandbabies? Seeing them 2 or 3 times a year? No way. Some things are just more important than a new experience, or more money. Anyway those are my monkey/chimp stories.

im guessing the reason why they didnt find you in their paypal account record is because they dont realize that they can a) search by transaction id # and b) go back quite a ways in their transaction history c) search specifically for payments made to them during a specific time period
and you provided all that info in your paypal receipts

funny how alot of paysite owners dont seem to understand how paypal works

OK. First of all, these are DONATION sets. She provided proof that a donation had been made. Therefore, there is absoloutely NO REASON that she would not be entitled to getting that set for free now. IF indeed it was a donation set, and not a SALE.

Where in the world would "getting scammed" come into this scenario? It is not like a SALE would be involved, would it? It is a fucking DONATION set. No scams possible. Gah.  :evil:

don't get sand in your panties lol I'm not condoning "donation" sets or paysites (which in the end they weren't too fussed about if they sent her the item again for free anyway) but seriously, it's really easy to mock up a fake paypal page and forward it on saying "hey I donated to you before the dinosaurs were extinct, gimme stuffs plx". like armywife pointed out as well, if you had someone come to you saying they donated to you a considerable amount of time ago you may not have transaction IDs on hand and if you can't find them, would assume it was a pirate or a 12 year old trying to scam freebies or something.

she provided all her proof and in the end they gave her the item for free - still not seeing it as something peggy or rose-esque...a bit TOO wary sure, but not completely OTT if you look at it really.

I had no idea how many people are scammers until my sister started telling me about the people calling into her work.  She works for a company that makes pet things for all around the world.  They are most known for their kennels.  My sister said that there are people calling in all the time asking for replacements and saying they never received the several sent.  They have people writing the same letters over and over in the same handwriting, same paper, and even saying the same damn thing but different name and street address.  People are issued refunds and they go out and buy the same product they're complaining about just to continue to be a pain in the ass.

First I need to admit: I'm biased. I like Holy Simoly, ATS, Numenor and I donated to them AFTER finding their "donation" packs in the booty. I even did the same with Lianaa (that I dislike as FA) because I like the fact she 'frees" one of her packs every time she releases a new one. I would like to be as adamant as others here. I just can't and I make distinctions. TSR, Peggy, Rose are evil. HS, ATS I wish they would become free so I could happily donate to them without feeling weird.

On the topic. There are only two options here. 1) you don't accept the logic of paying for items. 2) you do. Once you accept that logic everything else is a consequence, including that the seller wants proof before providing with you with a copy of what you paid for. You must admit that isn't hard to create a fake PayPal receipt. So according to 2) HS was right. Actually, at the end, you received what you asked for even if HS didn't deem your proof conclusive. This thread didn't make me change my mind about HS, actually it confirmed my opinion that it isn't evil, just misguided.

I think any site that has donations period are ran by monkeys. I love monkeys honestly but I guess because I work in retail where we force people have receipts for crap I would think any receipt would be good enough. That's just me. I basically do customer service first then ask questions.

Hehehehe Ok that is me cackling like a chicken, give me a few moments and I'll be snorting like a pig. Awww I adore you! I'm just thankful the coffee was on the desk not in my mouth when I read this.



I like HS, and I adore Numenor. So I have donated to both. I didn't know about ATS2 till I started coming here. I'd also donate to her/them if I were still paying for things. But, I won't donate now. They always try to fix things, give refunds, etc...they may question. But, they do the right thing in the end. I'm with you I wish they'd go free also, so I could show appreciation without feeling like I'm betraying the people that can't afford the donation. I don't understand why Num just doesn't  have a donation button and link to it, he'd get plenty. After all he's done for the community, he shouldn't feel the need to give something special to those willing to donate to him. Free the donation file Num!! You can do it. ;)

Honestly, it's just a fracking fridge. Why would they even feel the need to check records to release a fridge? Would their anal-retentive asses cave in if they sent a fridge to someone not in their "accounts"?

But as a 'seller' or 'vender', one would think THEY would keep records of their business (oops: "donation") transactions.  That is simply good and prudent business (oops:donation) practice.

While they're at it, they should be paying taxes every year too!

Just don't spank your monkey around us.....go do it in the belly of the ship,and clean up afterwards!

I think it is one of the most popular fridges around. It is very distinct and elegant, unlike most other fridges that look like boxes.

And despite them being a paysite, I still love HS like I love ATS2. I hope they'd decide to go free like Ren did.

Bionx...I know I probably spelled that wrong...I am female.

I think the best way to deal with the Seasons fridge updates is to do it yourself. (http://www.simsfilevault.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=1568) It's easy.

yeps, I did that with a couple of fridges I had downloaded from ATS before she went and updated her own stuff anyway.

I know, and if you spank your monkey too hard.....well.......you might get it's brains and blood all over da place.....we wouldn't want that, now would we? :lol:

I'm not going to make excuses on why I couldn't enable it myself. I'm slack. And uh busy! Really busy.. arr..

But the thing that I just realised, is this... if they were offering the Seasons enabled fridges as a FREEBIE for people who had downloaded and PAID for the donation set, why would they give me grief now? People anon could've downloaded that! And did they go around checking Ip's and making sure everyone matched on their accounts?
I do not - under any circumstances- , feel good about a site that is supposed to enhance my gaming life, calling me  LIAR and a THIEF. Even though it's indirectly, it's just bad manners. I can't feel good about that.
Call me hypersensitive and a whinger, I probably am! Haha.
But in the spirit of piracy, I find it hilarious that they go all anal retentive on me about a fucking fridge. Which they already offered for free... holding an item back, and getting all preachy about the economical logistics of it all... it's just monkey-madness.

I know there are scam artists, I work in retail, I know ALL about it. Hence why I am honest! But HS isn't a shop. It's supposed to be a fansite for fans, who are in a bit of a strap, who need money to keep going. Because THAT'S why I donated. If they are turning around and telling me they were LYING and they want to make an INCOME on it. I would have made a phonecall. I would have contacted paypal to contact them. I would have printed the receipts and printed my credit card receipts and sorted this out. But to do all that for a bunch of pixels that take maybe less than 1MB?
For material that they modified and adapted to a code that already exists?

I dunno. Maybe I'm the monkey!

 :lol:

You're not the monkey.
It IS bloody ridiculous.
All paysites are, no matter how much I like their stuff...lol. I'm a sucker for HS and ATS.
Just dip into the booty next time for everything you want, or pop over to SFV for a request. They do that there.

You could've fixed it yourself but didn't, could have asked on SFV but didn't, HS did end up sending you the fridge and not making you pay for it again like some of the real assholes would do...I dunno, maybe it's just me being tired and cranky after a long day at work, but it kinda sounds like you're complaining about HS for the sake of complaining about a paysite...kinda like using it as a "hook" to dive in and stop lurking with.

If they'd told you to just get bent and not sent you the file after you provided all your proof and/or told you to donate again or something, then I could understand the whole complaint but I dunno. Eh. *shuffles off in search of lots and lots of rum*

Isn't it weird...I mean I realise that I could've done that, (requested, etc) but I felt that was too strange. Afterall, I'm new around here (I think I'm like, level of Deckhand by now right? A bit above sharkbait?), and I thought it would be much easier for everyone, if I contacted HS directly. I was under the impression that they cared for the donators, and it would take a minute  :lol:

It took 5 days. :x  

Isn't it ridiculous? Mang! I am so going to take a vacation soon, just so I can learn SimPE! My boyfriend can sigh all he wants! Maybe like our lovely axe wielding moderator said.. I could have avoided all this grief if I had just done it myself!

*bookmarks page* I swear, I will face boyfriend wrath and take days to learn it! Since I am somewhat... SimPE challenged :P

This is how they treated a paying customer - not a fan, not someone who goes to MTS2, not someone they didn't know - a paying customer on a business that shouldn't exist.

And not being the worst of the worst arsehole is not really an excuse to cut them some slack.  I don't know if you've noticed, but this is "paysites must be destroyed" - not "paysites must be destroyed except for a couple we'll defend to the death".



Maybe so - to save yourself the grief - but at the end of the day, they still got your money, and their behaviour was shabby.

where am I defending them? I don't agree with donation sets, or with straight up paysites at all, I'd love to see them go completely free and will admit it annoyed the hell out of me that I paid for their donation sets a couple of weeks before I found PMBD - I just don't see the need for the whole burning pitchforks in this instance because they weren't like peggy or thomas or rose. we're trying to encourage them to go 100% free in another thread here, yeah? I know they've been considering it but I know if I were one of the pair of them and I were wavering on whether to go 100% free or not, if I read something like that tearing them to shreds even after they'd given the player a gift file, replaced the file in question and making a massive drama out of it, I'd be thinking "why am I entertaining the thought of accomodating these people?". catch more flies with honey and all that jazz...

Well accusing a paying customer of trying to scam you because you're too incompetent to read your own paypal records is kinda shitty.  That's the point.  If this person donated more than once, and has their own paypal receipts, HS should have the record somewhere, too.  They can't find it, which makes them the party with the issues--they can't understand the record keeping of their own choice of payment method.  That's pretty bad.

As for wavering, this above issue wouldn't even BE an issue if they weren't trying to sell files.  If you want to exchange money for goods and services, that makes you a business.  And part of running a business is having good customer service, even to people that are being annoying.  If you can't manage that, then you shouldn't be trying to run a business.

And considering, in this case, having a business in selling Sims 2 content isn't legal, it should be a no-brainer.

Right here:



You make them the exception to the rule, rather than treat them like any other site.  Ask yourself - if this person was a customer of Peggy's would you have gone so easy on Peggy?  The answer is you wouldn't have as you explain in your post:



Shabby behaviour from Holy Simoly is in fact, no better than shabby behaviour from all of these sites, and if you hadn't noticed, there is no distinction in the booty - separated by "good" and "bad" sites.  Leaving room for "good" and "bad" sites and choosing which ones were which is what got us here in the first place.



So? They're not free - they're fair game.  And despite pleas from others in the past, and pledges of support, they haven't actually gone free.  They're used to the crap all over the place of "But they're really nice" or "But they have such nice stuff" or "But their packs are such good value".  As long as that continues, they have no reason to go free whatsoever.  The way they are at the moment, they enjoy good community relations, and money - why should they bother to change?



Tearing to shreds?  How is the phrase "shabby behaviour" tearing them to shreds? You seriously need to read PMBD moar if you think that is tearing to shreds - or conversely keep posting messages telling others to be nice "and flies and all that" - and it'll happen to you sooner or later.

Oh Dear.

Please just know that I am not neccessaily whinging without cause, or wanting attention. I just wanted to point out that even NICE sites when coming contact with money just turn paranoid and haughty. Therefore hopefully fueling the opinion that all paysites should go free!! Yay!
And it's weird because HS isn't a paysite its a donation site. And yes I donated to them 3 times! I'll be happy to show you the receipts! Haha. I still feel weird saying that... like I'm still being cross examined  :shock:


Either way thanks guys for your insight and education on this matter. All for the fridge!  :lol:

actually...if you have to exchange $$$ for a file...its a paysite

Clearly Deelink has not seen the light.. yet.

Sometimes these things take time, Miss A. A lot of people make exceptions, others don't. I'm one of those that don't. A paysite is a paysite even if it's Holy Simoly. I haven't downloaded from there since I came abroad here and that was the beginning of this year.

I don't really see the point to this thread. You got the Files for Free the first time and in the end you STILL got the files.

Also corresponding by emails can portray a completely different tone. Maybe he was trying to be nice, and like someone else says doesn't know how to search things.. Which is sad that he wouldn't since it is his payment of choice.

I don't see anything wrong with him wanting some sort of proof.

And to end I really wish they would go Free as well.

And as for not learning something because you don't have time, well I just think you don't want to learn it bad enough to learn it. Which is fine too.

Sorry if I'm sounding harsh, it's just my opinion.

/two cents

The point is between the first post and the last page.

The thing is that the Fridges are in the Booty, maybe not the Seasons compatible ones but they are in there.

I'm sure there is another Holy Simoly thread around here somewhere, and why not take the time to teach something to yourself. In the time it took to create this thread and post in it, you could have certainly taught yourself something.

Maybe it's just me, but that's what I would have done. If I wanted them bad enough I would have updated them for seasons myself, and not had to create a thread about this experience when the search button works.

Problem is that paysites cannot have it the both ways that they want.  If they consider themselves to be "legal" then they have to support their products and do customer support.  It's their responsibility to keep records of everyone who has given them money in exchange for their goods.  So for them to say, "You are not in our records," is unacceptable.  It's really not that hard to understand.

Actually, DMM (too long to type), this very issue is one of the primary reasons I have an issue with paysites.  When new EPs are released, the items you paid for originally can become useless.   I don't create and don't have a clue how to update the fridge for Seasons.  Nor, do I want to learn.  

However, your advice sucks.  Since this thread is not kitty litter, and is relevant to paysites and issues, I don't have a problem with it whatsoever.  It also may help others to remember to keep copies of reciepts sent not only by PayPal but by the site admins.

ETA:  If Dee paid for it, which she did, she is entitled to the update.  To want another donation for an update of something to work she already paid for is really....kinda like Rose...who is now charging for fixed meshes.

Didn't I explain what happened in my first post?
I never got the files for free. I paid.
When my game bonked I redownloaded them from the booty. Minus said fridge.

Either way guys, you TOTALLY opened my eyes on the difference between donation sites and paysites. There is NO difference. When a site says it needs donations to stay open that is an indication that this is no longer a hobby for them, this is now a way to supplement or become their income.
The way they treated me like an account should tell you. I am no longer a fan talking to a fan, I become a customer talking to a provider. And that is SAD and ILLEGAL for The Sims 2 game.

I do agree that she should have gotten the files she donated for, because it was something she paid for.

Maybe it was the tone in which I read it.

I do know that in my place of business that if we make a mistake on something or something isn't complete we HAVE to fix it. Which could mean going back years to find the information. So yes he did have bad records, which she/he then provided proof of. That I don't think was a bad thing on his part, because also in my business if we don't have it in our records then it might as well not be there. Course with this all being electronic a lot can go wrong.

Also I did do a search for Holy Simoly and found nothing relevant to this subject so after learning this I do now believe that this post does have a point. So I apologize for not getting my own shit together before posting. I was expecting to see something along these lines somewhere in here but when nothing turned up I realized my own mistake.

Now there are some things in this world when dealing with companies that sometimes you have to pay for upgrades and fixes to they're things. It sucks but it happens, and on that note with them selling something that shouldn't even be sold - well period people shouldn't have to pay for the original content or the updates in this particular instance.

It is too bad that the updated fridges aren't in the booty. Maybe I'll go take my smart ass over and look up a tutorial. *before I need to kick myself again*

Again I apologize for my behavior from earlier.

yeah I think there might be wires crossed here calalily through my english or what because that might look to you like it's defending, but it's not - you don't know me personally so you don't know how I behave when I go to bat for people (you'll find it to be rather different and much stronger lol).

I've said time and again that I don't condone paysites or "donation" sets or however they want to spin the wording of it to make themselves feel better about it. that stance doesn't change just because they aren't assholes about it like others that clearly let people know they're in it for the money and do otherwise "respect" the community in some way instead of just basically showing people they think we're a bunch of retards (re: rose's "fixed" hairs), it just makes me approach them tactfully as opposed to offensively and with a little bit less disgust because I feel that they can potentially be talked around into getting liberated if they're inclined to and shown that we're not the bunch of assholes we're made out to be - which ultimately benefits everyone. If I'm still being misunderstood after that because I'm not sure how else to articulate what I'm trying to put across, it'll just have to be chalked up to communication difficulties, because I don't know how else to word what I'm trying to say without you interpreting it as "friendly fire".

So treat them the same.  There is no idea here that TSR, Peggy or Rose is somehow "worse" - they are all just as bad as each other.  Don't have a go at the customer who got bad service that was entirely their fault.  They got their money - now they need to provide a service.



Again, how is the phrase "shabby behaviour" offensive - it's what they actually did.  They treated a customer like a thief - this forum was born because they treated a paying customer like a thief - and banned her and shared her details.

I say "offensive" as in "being on the offensive" and being active against those sites, not "offensive" as in verbally abusing. *sigh* I give up, I don't know how better to explain myself correctly here on this one and keep being misinterpreted, so I give up - don't know how else to say things.

This site is on the offensive against them anyway - it's called the booty. That counts as total and sum of activity against them.  Any other behaviour like spamming their guestbook or sending them abusive emails is not officially sanctioned by PMBD.

Their disgruntled customers are welcome to discuss their problems with Holy Simoly all they like.  They shouldn't have to keep their mouths shut, or deal with it themselves cause you tell them to - Holy Simoly treated them badly - and whether you like it or not, they are indeed a paysite - so it falls under the jurisdiction of "paysites must be destroyed".

let's clarify here.

There ARE sites - including Parsimonious, MTS2, Simply Styling, and WickedNouk - who LEGALLY ask for donations to help support the site. The DIFFERENCE is that they do NOT OFFER PIXELS FOR PAY. You can get all the content you want for free, whether you donate or not.

The line is crossed when the receipt of pixesl depends upon the exchange of money. That's why Holy Simoly, as much as we like them, are a pay site. If they'd let the sets go free, I suspect their donations would increase tenfold.

This stuck out to me because I agree with it 100%. I know some people love Holy Smoly or Numero or ATS but I think all paysites should be treated the same.  :evil: I hate 'em all!  :lol:

i love HS. their stuff is always good quality (the arizona LR is one of my favs), and the great majority of their items are free. what i dislike is the set up of the donation sets. i'm not 100% anti-paysite, but i wanted ONE item from each of the donation sets (curtains/set 1, stairs/set 2, roof feature and corners/set 3). i wrote to them last week to inquire about a special price for the 3 items. they never wrote back. and then i found this site. *tee hee*

Hecubus: Yes I agree on the clarification. Holy Simoly is a paysite. Because they offer CC that noone (cough) else can get without payment.
I had *thought* that donation sites offered stuff for free but also offered exclusive downloads for donators. Like HS, like ATS2.
I also had thought that free sites that offer no special "cash for content" items were just free sites that had donation drives.

*ponders while stroking chin and sipping Rum*

So to lump it, anything that offers exclusive content for cash is a paysite and every site that has donation drives but does not offer any CC for doing so is a donation site? Or for the sake of simplicity we don't label them at all?

 :shock: Did I just understand something? *blonde toss of head*

Yes, Dee.  Think of it as charity vs. Walmart.  Maybe a quirky example, but donations to help a site that you love and that allows all simmers to download whether that downloader can afford to donate or not is not a target.  IF you have to give money to get it, it's a paysite.

as a sims newbie i need some clarity. so can you guys clear this up for me without being mean?

i'm not 100% anti-pay/donation site. as the former owner of a wildly popular website (not sims related) i know how expensive bandwidth can be. i had several hosts shut me down because of bandwidth overages. and i wasn't storing large files for download, nor was the site graphic heavy. i ultimately had to get a 2 server load balance solution which cost me $900+ p/month. so with that said i know bandwidth costs are very real.

also, i don't see the harm in talented artists getting paid for their efforts. i've seen a lot of comments about people finding "real jobs," etc. imo the best job is one u have a passion for and love. i consider myself artistic, relatively computer literate and with a lot of time and practice i could probably learn to recolor, create meshes, etc. but it's not something everybody can do. from the tutorials i've read i assume a lot of time goes into making hacks and objects, especially new meshes. or is it not as time consuming as i assume?

are u guys defending EA's copywrite? because i don't think EA really cares about their customers or profit modders. the modders keep people interested in the game and allows ea to provide us with the bare minimum.

are u defending the fans that can't afford cc from paysites? i'd probably have a different attitude if i was 14 and couldn't afford it.

don't get me wrong. i love this site. and i prefer the freebies. i'm just curious about the vehemence of some of your views regarding pay sites. i'm asking this in relation to sites with HIGH QUALITY items. this post is not in support of peggy or the meat slab dress. please don't crucify me. i'm not a techie and new to the sims community, so i just want to understand since the mission statement was a little vague.

You're probably going to find a wide range of answers to your questions.  You will find those who regret having certain sites' items in the bounty, mostly because they are high quality and the creators otherwise participate in the community.  This site is anti-paysite, not necessarily anti-creator (Atwa, Peggy, and Rose being the major exceptions).  That is a consequence of having a zero tolerance policy toward paysites.  If you've been lurking around enough (and shame on you if you haven't!), you'll find plenty of posts discussing the reasons for the zero tolerance policy.

There are a number of ways paysites harm the Sims community.  See Hecubus' Money Better Spent site for a full listing of the arguments.

The legal arguments made from the EULA may indeed give the impression we are defending EA's copyright.  You'll also find plenty of posts regretting EA's lack of action on the issue.  However, the reasons we are here vary by each individual.  For example, in my case, I couldn't give a rat's ass about EA's copyright.  Is EA losing something because of paysites?  The poor babies!  That's my attitude at least.

As I read the mission statement, one of the main things we are trying to do is defend fans that can't afford the CC.  One of the harms to the community paysites do is split the community into haves and have-nots.  Personally, I also think it has a lot to do with Pandora selling Pescado's mods without his permission, so there is a little revenge there going on too.  In my case, Socialist that I am, I just get some kicks tweaking with businesses to begin with.

I hope this makes things a little clearer than mud for you.  Please lurk moar and ask moar questions.

Tim

Happy to try.



Agreed. Bandwidth can be expensive. Which is why we don't mind supporting sites like Parsimonious and MTS2, but also why we encourage site owners to find free web hosting (which exists all over).



It's not about time or talent. It's about a very clear statement in the EULA which makes selling user created content a breach of contract. Just as gaming is a hobby, so should creating custom content be. Some of the most talented creators in teh community - Judie at AAS, Nouk, Numenor, HP, Pescado - are all happily free. And in accordance with EA's EULA.



They absolutely DO care. They don't want people to make money off them...they're a corporation after all. THAT is why they're very clear in their EULA about 'non-commercial' being the only kind of site content can be shared on.




That too.

There's not just the legal argument, there is also the ethical argument. Please see this page of my site for several good explanations (http://www.moneybetterspent.org/index_files/page0004.htm).



I can see why the front page mission statement might seem vague. Read this for a more delineated statement. (http://phorum.mustnotbenamed.com/viewtopic.php?p=44636#44636)

i've been here THREE days - counting today (i think - gotta check the date). DAY ONE - i read the links at the bottom of the home page, the rules, browsed thru 1 or 2 threads and started downloading downloading and more downloading.  :D  DAY TWO - more downloading, and cross referencing files to clean up paysite crap i didn't want. DAY THREE (today) i'm trying to incorporate myself into this community and get to know u guys.  :D

will do. after posting this thread i came across this: http://sims2-snapshots.livejournal.com/8269.html.



i agree. as far as i'm concerned EA profits from everybody - customers, free AND pay modders.

But isn't that life in general?


i saw that mess for the first time yesterday and i couldn't believe it! and i didn't even find out from the forum. i was going thru the booty checking out each site (many of which i wasn't aware of). i went to pandora and i'm like "wait a minute? what the hell???" couldn't believe it...


mmm hmm - somehow i think this is primary motivation. ROFLMAO. but your tweaking is my gain sweetie and i'm not mad at you.

i most certainly will. thanks for answering me respectfully. i was expecting to have my head handed to me on a stick after my first thread.

True enough.  One of the reasons I'm a Socialist, in fact . . . :)




As I said, everybody has their own motivations for being here and/or donating to the booty.  I'm not sure, but I don't think that is part of Pescado's intent as he blames everything on left-wing conspiracies when it is clear they are actually right-wing conspiracies.  But who knows?  :D



You're welcome.  I was also hoping no one would hand you your head on a stick.  Such interesting questions!  I would really like to see how others will answer them.

Tim

ok hec... may i call u hec? :) i read your links. very informative. the biggest point for me personally was the fact that sims 2 is the only pc game where this occurs. this is my very first pc game. i'm a ps2'er.  understanding the history and spirit of pc gaming puts it in a totally different context. because the whole defense of EA's copyright just isn't working for me. especially since technically they're profitting off modders themselves.

now i have a completely different question and i'm off my devil's advocate soapbox.

i have a problem with my game where whenever i "travel" in game - go to a community lot or go from one household to another. if the household i just left is content heavy - big family, big house, lots of furniture - when i get to the next lot my graphics go 'kaplooey.' objects will literally drag across the screen leaving stretched lines across my screen to the point where i can't play because i can't see what's going on in the lot. i have to completely shut the game down and reload. which sucks because it makes me not want to visit community lots. so my sim families are pretty much house bound. i can't fulfill my teens wants for a cell phone, etc or visit Dirk Dreamers beautiful restaurant Dirque Int'l. Is this a graphics card issue? a memory issue? i don't know what i need to upgrade to make my game act right.  and i fear the guy in Circuit City wouldn't know what i was talking about. :(  if u don't understand what i'm talking about i will take a screenshot. i know this is totally off topic but since i have your attn i figure 'what the hell?'

According to the label on the front of my pc, my specs are:
524 Intel Pentium 4 Processor
1.0 GB memory
200 GB hard drive
Integrated ATI RADEON Xpress 200 Graphics

any thoughts on this?

It could be any or all of the above.  I would start with the graphics card.

Tim

Indeed, there is nothing wrong with artists being paid for their endeavors.  However, creating for the sims is nothing more than a hobby.  In other game communities people have spent literal years working one piece of CC for one game and don't ask for a dime.  They don't ask for bandwidth/hosting costs either.  It comes out of their own pockets.  If someone did try to ask for money, they would be laughed at and shown the door.

People's entitlement to money in this community is a strange phenomenon from years past.  It stemmed from Maxis' allowance of sites asking for donations for bandwidth.  People like to push further into what is unacceptable in the name of greed.  For the Sims 1, they got away with it because at the time what they did was considered higher quality items.  

When the Sims 2 was months away from being released, there were already people trying to charge for content from the stand alone bodyshop that was released.  They cried about how much larger the files were than CC for the original.  Quite a few were people that had only *just* opened their site.  It didn't matter if they had traffic or not!  Need I mention how awful the quality was?

After the game was released, our best and brightest spent months trying to understand the coding to allow for modding and inserting objects into the game.  They had a few hints here and there from the Maxoids but it was mainly their effort that gave us the ability to have all the CC we now have today.  From it SimPE and CEP were created, which are still free today.  It was the combination of tutorials though written by the community and help from the community that allowed what needed to be done to get objects/hair/clothing in the game be more understandable from those not as technically minded.  

A surge of new creations were beta tested in a single forum on MtS2 by again, the community, for at least a month before something I feel was a turning point in the community.  Crechebaby, owner of Simchic, started advertising for new clothing meshes only available on her site for pay.  When people complained, she removed the meshes that she had the people beta test and put them up for sell as well.  The war of pay versus free had begun.

Today the misguided still feel that pay items are better quality than free.  They look at the propaganda screens provided on the paysites as truth.  One brief look in the game for the majority of the pay items would obliterate that thought.  Even some of those enlightened still try to differentiate the creators that are truly good from the rest of the paysites.  I see it as counterproductive.  It enables those good creators to continue what they're doing instead of going free.

--

Additional thought:  What people seem to easily forget is that "Maxis" no longer exists.  It has been absorbed by Electronic Arts.  Paysite owners no longer have the cushion of protection that Maxis provided in the name of bandwidth.  Instead they chose to hide behind "donation" and/or that you're just paying to access the site and are not buying the CC.  For all their complaining though, they haven't actually done anything because they know they are wrong.  They are just bidding their time and milking this community for all it's worth.

Additional thought #2:  What people also seem to not understand is how little paysite creators actually create.  Nouk breaks it down here (http://phorum.mustnotbenamed.com/viewtopic.php?p=41935#41935).

*giggles*

socialist, huh? as an american i myself have certain issues with this capitalist system. but i don't want to talk politics or get to deep into that. i wouldn't want to violate the patriot act or anything. u never know who's watching. *sigh*

ty missangelica for the link. u guys are educating me immensely which is exactly what i wanted. just the fact that this is a new phenomenom in pc gaming does it for me. if the spirit of the gaming community has always been free sharing then what they're doing is wrong. i never knew that. i'm sold on that fact alone. coupled with a lot of the crappy crappola that people are requesting payment for. and it's even more interesting that simchic started it. do u see this MESS??? http://www.simchic.com/i/Image/Catalog/1404_DJ_GingerBrown.jpg

not only were my sim ladies tripping/falling and bumping into things because the hair in their eyes was obstructing their view, but they were also randomly stabbing unsuspecting sims with that super hard pointy unmoving ponytail in the back!

uh well thanks for narrowing that down for me, tim.  :D  according to my specs do i have a cheesy graphic card or insufficient memory? when i got the game i didn't really pay attn to specs. i assumed my pc was up to snuff. and for some stupid reason the system requirements are only on the plastic packaging that you throw away once u open the game.  i don't understand why it's not in the game manual.

*useless post*



I just updated ALL my fridges. Bless you.

*end useless post*

You can try checking for yourself by opening the EAsy Info program.  Use the one for the latest expansion pack you have.  Whatever says "Fail" is what may be giving you the problem.  Or maybe not.  I had a system that met the specs but I still had problems getting things running properly.  YMMV.

Tim

how do u do that? i really am ignorant to all of this. i need to fix this though. i just never knew where to go for help or answers. this is the first forum i've joined where i'm actually talking to people. i usually join, lurk and dl. i want seasons, but i'm afraid my pc will implode. it's getting progressively slower and the graphic thingy is happening more frequently with every dl. but i can't stop dling - it's a disease...

Start>EAGAmes>Your Latest TS2 Expansion>EasyInfo.

This is a great site for searching for answers (not for posting blindly - seek in silence and ye shall likely find your questions already addressed):

http://www.moreawesomethanyou.com/smf/index.php

More CC you have, slower your game will run.  Fact of life.  I'm no expert, but 'Integrated' is a red flag for a vid card for this game.  It may not be able to handle certain CC files very well or at all.

jf - seeking in silence would have taken longer since i really don't have a clue about the machinations of the game beyond playing it. u helped me instantaneously. my display device/driver and sound driver resulted in unknown capatibility. thanks for your help. at least now i know where to start. didn't mean to aggravate u.

It's most definitely the integrated graphics card.  The reason why the increase of downloads increases what I like to call "texture crapping," is because when you get a new download, you generally use it right away, right?  So you're adding more objects to your game, things that are potentially much higher poly or texture quality, which takes more memory.

The problem with an integrated graphics card is that it doesn't have its own memory.  It's borrowing from the rest of the computer, and therefore you don't really have any RAM devoted to graphics.  The borrowing works enough so that your game works, but it's not very pretty.

Adding RAM straight up won't help, either.  On my old laptop, I added another gig of RAM (not just for sims, I needed it anyway) which basically gave me 5x the RAM I started with, but it didn't improve my graphics.  Improved load times and lag immensely, but not the quality of my graphics.

If you've got a laptop, you're also not going to be able to change out the video card in most cases.  Since yours is integrated, if you've got a laptop, I'd say you can't.  So you can toss more RAM in if you're having speed and load issues, but the graphics aren't really going to be getting any better.

i have a pc - so does that mean there's hope for me? i didn't know an "integrated" graphic card was a bad. i'm truly ignorant to all of this. can u suggest an appropriate graphic card?

*nm* i just reread your post. i guess it's safe to assume i need a graphic card that has it's own memory. and it shouldn't be integrated. i'll figure it out. thank you guys SO MUCH.

I'd go with a nVidia card. I had a intergrated card and switched to a nVidia 6800, brought it home only to have it not work properly. The 6800 card required a power supply of 350 watts or higher to run properly. The power supply that is in my computer is only 300.

So i took the card back and got a nVidia 5500 series with 256 mb ram made by evga (I purchased a AGP card) and it worked perfectly. So when you do go for a new video card make sure you bring your computer specs with you and the watt power of your power supply and ask the sales person which card would be best for your computer.

Also the specs for the video card you are purchasing will be listed on the outside of the box somewhere.

Heres a link on how to buy the right video card for you. There are 3 types of slots available in todays PC's. They are PCI, AGP, and PCI Express.

http://www.diamondmm.com/howtobuyvideocard.php

Hope this helps :)

Isn't nVidia the brand which has tons of issues with The Sims 2 specifically?  There's several that won't run BV, period at the moment, if I remember correctly.

I'm a fangirl for ATI, honestly.  I had a suck-ass Radeon Xpress in my old laptop and, for the card it was, it ran admirably.

Right now, I've got an ATI Mobility Radeon X1400 and it works awesomely.  But the main concern when going for a new graphics card is making sure it's got plenty of what's called onboard memory.  I don't know how much graphics cards run for the PC (since I've been on laptops and am therefore not shopping for them individually, and all other laptop components cost more than a desktop version), but if you want something that will last you for quite some time, I might go with something with 512MB of RAM.  That would be a decent compromise between price and technology.

That said, I haven't had any problems running through Seasons with 2gigs of custom content on my card, which has 256MB of RAM.  I do have 2gigs of RAM and a newer processor, which helps out performance wise, I'm sure.

Aside from making sure your power supply can handle it (HP desktops, I know, are notorious for itsy bitsy power supplies), make sure also that you'll have enough cooling.  If things already run really hot for your computer, you might want to talk to someone knowledgeable about installing a card for the best way to make sure the tower doesn't overheat on you.

Man I really can't remember if I said this before. But The Sims 2 is programmed to make CC file sharing an easy process. The whole spirit of the game was to make stuff take stuff and share it, amongst everyone! First of all the Sims 2 is not really meant to be real life, where your sims's furniture reflects YOUR income. That is just absurd.
In the Sims 2 your fantasies can come true within the reason of the game engine. Your download folder is only limited to your HD. All of these things point that EA WANT us to have everything we want.
It's a SIMULATION game, why the hell are you going to pay for VIRTUAL stuff you are only going to look at? For the elitist purpose that you have money and therefore can have it?

As for tech specs.. I believe having over 2 GB of RAM and a good video card will solve most Sim related lagging.

 :P

Some of the older nVidia cards did have problems.  I have the 8500 and have had no issues, but I also have 4 g rambus, and core 2.  No slickchik, you just need to get the specs for your motherboard to find out what cards are compatible with your system.  Ex.  PCI, PCI Exp, etc.  You can also go to newegg.com and find usually the best prices.

I have the nVidia 5500 fx card & i am running all the Sims 2 EP's & SP's with no problem. I'm also using the latest set of nVidia drivers.

I haven't had any problems with BV not running. *crossses fingers* :lol:

Ack!  Not aggravated - just letting you know what's what over at MATY.  Seriously, searching usually does the job over there.  Sorry if you took my post the wrong way.   :(

Many of us have said we love HS, ATS2, and Num...doesn't mean we don't think their stuff should be in the booty. I even wrote to Numenor and told him, I'm sorry, but I agree with all the reason's his tanning bed has to remain in the booty. Surprise he agreed with all the reasons too. He just doesn't agree with the reason's themselves. lol Just because they're a paysite doesn't mean they don't have quality merchandise, or that the owners aren't nice people.



I have an HP, I ran it clear up and into Season's with a built in Intel Graphics card. Never had a problem. Only thing I had to do was add  pixel shader true into my cheat. Intel's built in graphic card can handle pixel shader 2/bump maps with no problem. In fact the guys at Best Buy thought I was nuts for wanting to change it out/add a graphic card. They said are you having problems with your games? I said no, it runs all my games great. No crashing, nothing. They said you know you already 512 onboard? I said yes. He said then if your not having problems you have over 2 gigs your adding into the game, why are you purposely looking to give yourself problems? I said I don't know. lol Oh and I had over 200 Sims in just one neighborhood, with over 2,000 character files also and never ran slow, hung, nothing.

I wanted to reply Hawkgirl.. but your use of the word "merchandise" really baffled me....

I was thinking that a lot of people have paid for stuff from HS and they inturn have adopted the whole "business" philosophy. That doesn't make them any less nice as people. They are just capitalists.

Is it right to profit from people who just want more options to their gameplay? An already limited array of choices due to the nature of the Sims2 engine?

I am just pointing out a few things that need to be ironed. Personally I think it's just NOT NICE AT ALL.  :evil:

I called it merchandise because we have to pay for it. Is not merchandise goods that are bought and sold? And no I don't think it's right to have to pay for it. I don't think anyone should pay for it. However, I am one of the people that has paid for CC before. I probably would have continued as well, but several things happened. Not going into that big long story again, but has nothing to do with me. I have no bad luck story, no paysite owner has ever treated me badly. I've never been banned, etc. I think we need to refer to their stuff as merchandise which is the correct term. Not donation pack. Maybe they'd realize they are indeed business owners, and as business owners they must follow the same laws other business owners must follow. They can't have their cake and eat it too. With, I'll just make CC and sell it, call it a donation pack and then I don't have to worry about the consumer protection laws. I think not. They want to treat people as customers, that makes them business owners. Which means we need to find out if they are paying business taxes. Have business licenses. Have licensing agreements for what they are selling, give refunds, fix broken merchandise, etc...etc.

I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to say here, but if someone exchanges something, even pixels for money, it's merchandise, a sale. It's not a donation.

No, they're thieves. Which does make them less nice as people.