PMBD

In the real TS2 world I am known as netseeker2.  And as such I would like to post my whole sordid story of what happened to me there at TSR and what goes on there behind the scenes. It is documented with evidence files (which you will have to download from the link given). These are ALL uneditted and untouched files (correspondence, screenshots etc) between Thomas & I, and Atwa & I. There is no slander nor defamation at all in it, because it is actual facts listed and I also have the proof as attachments (that you will need to download off from that link - which incidentally Thomas won't do you any good to try to have removed because since it is proof - that means it could be used in a court of law against you.) - since it doesn't seem I can add attachments in here. I also divulge how TSR operates based on my experiences and things I know that goes on there.  So sit back with your favourite beverage and start reading.....

My experiences on TSR started off fine for the most part with me uploading lots that I created. Then because there was so little homecrafter material available and what was available at the time all the creators of such material were territorial about it and didn't want anyone using any of their stuff without permission for such (the TSRAA wasn't in existance yet), so I started creating my own homecrafter material out of sheer desperation for a snow terrain paint that I could use on one of my lots. Which led me to make more homecrafter material that I decided to share by uploading to TSR, figuring it would make other lot builders lives easier if they didn't have to create everything from scratch themselves like I did. Izazu was the first to ask me permission to use my homecrafter material and then CycloneSue, so that encouraged me to make more of it. But I kept getting rejection after rejection on them from Kath because some didn't tile properly (okay fine, maybe some didn't but some did and she still rejected them using that excuse).

Then the TSRAA came into existance and Izazu suggested I join it. So I did. I was there for a little while until one person who is currently a FA on TSR now (Shakeshaft) copied almost precisely some walls I'd made and added a couple little (barely visible) mouldings to them and posted them. There was an argument between us about that and somehow someone dragged that into the TSRAA forum, where Shakeshaft mentioned something about it in there and then I posted my rebuttal to her. Well of course since Shakeshaft was their little darling my rebuttal got removed but her post stayed. So I removed myself from the TSRAA but stipulated on my profile page that anyone could use my material in lots that they posted anywhere.

A week or so later I got wickedly sabotaged and my ratings plummeted - in the space of 20 minutes they went down over 600 places - so I shut my ratings off. In fact at that time Dinad and Sims2LvrGrl also got sabotaged. Then surprise surprise a week after that Shakeshaft was named FA, when all of us (including Shakeshaft) were around the same ratings before our sabotage.That occurred during the summer months of 2005.  Then I quit TSR and didn't upload anything again until CycloneSue lured me back, which was several months later in late fall of 2005.

So I went back to continue to make homecrafter material to supply there at CycloneSue's request.

Then came  Atwa on the scene as a subscriber. She was downloading a lot of my homecrafter material and used it to build lots with. She showed me pics of some of her work and I said she should post it on TSR (like I told everyone who showed me their work - to encourage them to share it - so we could all get and use it if we liked and wanted it). She then asked me to make some walls with photographs she'd taken herself in Egypt to use on lots she wanted to build and at the time I was misled into thinking she was a nice person and so complied with her wishes and amazingly Kath approved them all even though they didn't tile correctly (which Ravenna was all too anxious to inform me of in a PM the very minute they were posted on the site - none of which were downloaded yet by the time Ravenna informed me of that fact - that they didn't tile correctly).

At Christmas time I was given a bigger hard drive and so could install SimPe and Microsoft Framework along with the game and so started doing recolours. Once I started doing recolours I had all kinds of people soliciting me to work with them. Crystal Clear Sims, Spirited Sims, Simsistic and some others I can't think of at the moment. However, I kept getting rejection after rejection on TSR on account of them - not because they didn't tile correctly but because I didn't know which expansion pack they were from and so listed all the expansions I had installed (while everyone else was allowed to do that and get away with it there). Yet my recolours were fine and even sought after by these other sites.

By March 2006 or thereabouts I was getting overwhelmed with the amount of sites I was supplying and the amount of material I had to create in order to supply them and to make matters worse I kept getting rejections for cockamamie reasons on TSR and so I offered to quit (which you will see as an online support issue title in the attached online support issue screenshots). Steve answered that himself and basically said it was my decision but that the idea of TSR was to share and share alike. I had other issues with TSR at the time too and since Per was one of the people to answer it sanely and rationally and fairly, and resolve them I stuck around. But honestly I was going to quit creating altogether for everybody at that point and that's when I got a surprise email from Hexameter with the beautiful horse & carriage he had made for me as a gift, for giving him the impetus he needed to start creating in the first place (it was my Melody Ranch Town lot that was his impetus). That was the first time I corresponded with Hexameter and today I count him as a close friend. It's his gift and what he said in his email that accompanied it, that made me change my mind and continue beating my head against all the brick walls in the community. Basically, I figured it would be selfish of me to quit creating if my humble offerings that I posted could inspire someone to learn meshing and make something that beautiful, that maybe if I quit creating there might be others who wouldn't make something that they'd have otherwise made if I created something. That is why I stuck around.

In the meantime I was chosen to be a beta-tester at TSR and was there in the forum when Blue Soup got thrown out of the beta-tester forum for for allegedly belonging to a pirate board. Thomas tried to ask and accuse me of that later on after the sabotage I was to endure in November. Which he would've loved to have been able to prove, because when the Kudos were implemented I had earned so many so quickly I must've gotten some FAs panties and shorts all in knots because one night TSR "had a crash". The next morning my kudos were in Thomas' words "adjusted" - what he did is he hid 144,000 of them (and they are still not showing in the total that shows on my profile page currently - but show in my kudos page where it itemized what they were earned for and spent on) and gave me a year's sub in exchange for them. If he could've proved it or even a suspicion of me belonging to such a board, he'd have banned me then and I'd have lost the sub (which is basically all I got out of TSR for everything I gave them). As it is I had 43 days left on my sub when they banned me and yanked all of my stuff off of there. Plus I had over 846,000 kudos earned (besides the hidden 144,000 kudos) showing - so how many centuries would those be good for taking my 3 incentive days a month? Just wondering here, because these are something I earned the hard way - if it were money he were paying me like he does the FAs - there wouldn't be a problem because that would be in my bank account and he couldn't just take it back. So he's a rip-off artist like he's accusing everyone else out there in simsland of being.

Then at the end of November 2006 I, Atwa, Sherriesim, Paleoanth, Darqstar & Momoma all got sabotaged again. This time though they hadn't done a number on me like they did before - they only dropped me from 4.33 (which was in the gold category) down to 4.29 (at the top of the silver category), but they basically trampled the others down into the ground. I believe Momoma was the one who got the worst trampling.

Because I had been sabotaged before I was furious that the powers that be hadn't done anything to change things to protect the artists against it, when they had had a year & a half to do so from the last time I got sabotaged. I also knew from previous experience that if we got sabotaged that they were going to name a new FA in very short time and that perhaps we were all contenders for being chosen (because the FAs have a forum where they discuss all of this stuff) - FAs also had a tendency to sabotage people's ratings if their ratings were higher than the FAs were. Sure enough a new FA was chosen, but from offsite - Confide I believe it was. Which infuriated Atwa because she noticed that all the FAs from September until December were all offsite artists being recruited from elsewhere and none were from the SA pool onsite (who she thought had the right to be FAs first before offsite artists). In a way I agreed with her because after all most of the SAs and almost all of the artists in the ranks were there supporting TSR and TSR was making money on all of their stuff, while it was still a strictly paid site. So I posted a rant about it on my profile page. I also posted a rant about the saboteurs as well and quit.

That is when Elmazz who was merely an artist in the ranks too at the time, went around all the forums saying something in them about how I should be the spokesperson for the non-FAs and Thomas went ballistic in the forums at me (NOT at her, but at me) when I wasn't even on the site let alone in the forums. So then he sent me a threatening email and kicked me out of the beta testers forum. But he made Elmazz into an FA. Do you see the justice and fairness there? Because if you do I wish you'd point it out to me.

I replied to his threatening email (which you will find enclosed/attached) explaining where I was coming from and Atwa's anger about him not choosing FAs from onsite but rather recruiting them from off site. I even suggested that he name her, or Sherriesim or another artist Clncy as an FA. This email was dated on December 12th 2006. Atwa was named FA a day or two before Christmas of 2006 (more than 2 weeks after my suggestion to Thomas that she be named FA). You will see what I asked for in exchange for me returning to TSR (and being an SA or FA wasn't one of my demands for myself) - all I asked for was equity and fairness to everyone on there including me and for him to right some wrongs. Period. This text is uneditted and verbatim. I am also attaching his replies - well our entire exchange on the whole matter for public edification because I know there was a lot of speculation and rumours going around the community at the time as to what happened. It is my belief that Thomas named Atwa FA as a means of appeasing not only me but Sherrie and the community at large (the disgruntled portion of it who were sick of seeing offsite artists being recruited to be FAs) and not because she was such a wonderful ew-aw great artist.

Now why did Atwa want to be FA soooooooooooo badly? Because FAs get paid. They get paid based on their popularity and the number of downloads they generate. FAs have always been paid and are still paid. Whilst the SAs and the rank artists got nothing even while TSR was a strictly paid site and selling their content to subscribers. So I never got a cent off of anything that TSR ever managed to sell of mine while they were a strictly paid site - all I got out of the deal was incentive days and for those I had to have in the beginning 5,000 paid subscriber downloads to get one incentive day - then it was upped to 10,000 paid subscriber downloads for each incentive day. Which incidently could've been taken as often as you wanted until they ran out, so if you wanted to use them all one behind each other you could. I had accumulated about 140 incentive days before they were changed into kudos recently. Which meant when my sub expired in 43 days time, I'd have been good for almost another half year before I ran out of incentive days to use. Now with the kudos thing and my 846,000 kudos taking 3 days a month, which millenium would it be by the time I used them all and would TSR even exist then? More importantly would I even exist then? So that's a rip off right there.

On January 8th I got a surprise email from Thomas telling me (not asking me if I wanted to be one, like he asked everyone else) that he'd made me into an SA. It seems that Thomas felt he could always take liberties and do whatever he wished with my account and stuff without first asking or informing me of anything. Whether I'd gotten that email or not, I was preparing to go back to TSR, as my son had returned to school and the Christmas holiday business was over with for us. It's just coincidental that he made me SA when he did which coincided with my return to TSR - as I had promised him in exchange for his making things right I would return but at the time I made that promise it was very close to Christmas and I had still had things to do around here with friends and family and well like anyone else netseeker2 makes her personal life her priority over her sims life. So when I made the promise to Thomas that I would return, I meant it, but I didn't say when that would be, because I wasn't sure myself when that would be, only that it would probably be after the holidays or maybe during them if I could find the time.

So I resumed uploading stuff I'd made and contended with all the cockamamie rejections (including that I didn't link to the meshes that I'd used - even though I've never done a custom mesh recolour in my life and everything I recoloured was from the game). I've had rejections galore with all kinds of excuses attached as the reason for rejecting them, from the picture size to the wallpaper background for the set, to things not being suitable for 13PG rating (yet liquor and bars are supposed to be suitable for 13 year olds - righttt), to not tiling properly, to not listing the precise expansion required for each item in a set (and listing all my expansions I had), to not linking to the meshes etc... You name it, I've had something rejected on account of it. But that was fair for me - yet others got away with not listing what was required (and still do) or listing every expansion they own as being required for that one single item. Yet when I did it, it was rejected. This happened EVEN WHILE I WAS AN SA too.

This is the reason why Sherriesim quit TSR and went on her own, because of the cockamamie rejections she was getting and for the "help" (read hinderance and hard time) she was getting from Atwa (who was supposed to be the "Artist Manager" at the time and intercede for us) over it. I tried mediating that dispute between the two of them - which occurred on February 20ieth of this year. I wasn't very successful at it obviously. But basically in hindsight (even though Sherrie didn't have any screenshots - but Atwa "did" - though hers could've been manufactured and in hindsight I think they probably were) I believe Sherrie's version of what happened in that chat session between her and Atwa whereby it degenerated into a huge fight and Atwa had Sherrie's SAship revoked on TSR because of it. It's so nice to have power when you're a backstabber, busy stabbing all the people in the back that got you to the point where you are eh Atwa??? I have all the supporting evidence to prove what I'm saying.

Then shortly after that, they started allowing the SAs to set the publishing dates for their submissions without having to be approved. So great no more cockamamie rejections to contend with. Ahhhhhh but now we have a new SA Forum that we all have to attend and participate in and my one and only participation in that (other than to post a few chitchat pieces and some links in the resource area) wound up as follows:
 
On Friday September 14, 2007 or thereabouts  I got banned from TSR and all my stuff got yanked off of there. Now apparently if you try to go to my page, it's a profile page with my About Me on it, and a couple of pics but it says I haven't created anything. I don't know how long that will stay there either and quite frankly I don't care at this point.

The sin I committed for that to have happened? ....

A couple of days before July 17th 2007 (which is when my last submission was posted there) Thomas was asking in the SA forum for ideas on improving the site and the image of the site in the community. Since I've always been there as a creator and not merely as a subscriber or downloader, I could only offer suggestions based on my experience as a creator and so I reiterated all the things that've been done to me over the years by Kath, him, Per and Steve and said not to do those to anyone else. I mean I thought we were seriously talking about the real existing TSR and not some fantasy site with hypothetical problems that required hypothetical solutions. So Thomas got furious in the forum and basically told me to stop bringing up past hurts and that they don't do that (oh and yeah one of the things I said not to do also in my post in there, was delete one person's message in the threads in forums while leaving everyone else's replies to them) and he deleted my message that he was replying to, while saying they don't do that. So basically he called me a liar and berated me publicly for giving them honest to goodness suggestions that might've helped them improve their image based on things that really do happen there. So when I saw his reply I asked him what he was replying to if they don't delete messages to show me the actual message he's replying to, and got mad and said I was out of there. And I never went back into the SA Forums after that. And Atwa sent me a scathing email about what I said in the forum. To which I replied.

On August 17th 2007 (one month to the day my last submission was posted) he apparently changed the rules for the SAs - now instead of 3 months of inactivity before you lost your status and mini-site it was down to 2 months. Plus on top of that he had changed the requirements - now you have to produce one set of 10 objects per week, one lot every 2 weeks or a mesh set every month. Sounds alright except that the 10 objects aren't 10 objects if you use the same texture on any of those pieces more than once. What constitutes an object now is the texture - so for a 10 piece set you need 10 different textures on them. Sorry.... But to coin a phrase from Sherriesim, I don't do paint factory explosions. My son who will be graduating from his Interior Design studies in December agrees with Sherrie's assessment on that one - he says you NEVER use more than 3 maximum 4 main colours for an entire room - unless you want it to look busy or like a paint factory explosion. So I can only imagine who was behind that new requirement that Thomas posted and why - perhaps so hers wouldn't be the only paint factory explosion stuff on the site and thereby stand out like a sore thumb.

Then on Friday September 14 2007, I got an email from Atwa asking me if I was going back to TSR as an SA because the rules were changed and I'd better go back before my SAship lapsed. To which I replied that I had no intention of going back before I got a public apology in the SA Forum from Thomas (which I knew I wouldn't get from the arrogant ignoramus) and a private apology from her in email. There was no response to that message.

The next morning I went to log into TSR and I couldn't get in. So used another name to get in to find that all of my stuff was gone from the site. Then another SA went to look at my page and told me what she found and Sherrie then verified it for me.

You will find screenshots of the various online support issues I've had there over time - two screenfuls of just titles alone, attached. So for Thomas to say I never had problems there was a blatant lie - he was the one doing the lying in that forum but had the audacity to call me the liar. Hence the reason I didn't give-in  for my request for a public apology. If I had've thought to get screenshots of the innumberable rejections I've had over the years, I'd need to rar them all and attach a CD's sized rar to this email of just those alone. But I think the online support issues verifies what I'm saying here. The only two liars I know of on TSR are Thomas and Atwa, but they're the ones that have the audacity to say and infer that everyone else are liars. So far as I know everyone else is genuine, including me.

 


----------------------------------- Enough About Me - Now About TSR Itself --------------------

Up until September or October of 2006 TSR was a strictly paid site with weekly freebies rotations. Meaning that if anyone wanted to download anything that wasn't in the freebies rotations they had to have a paid subscription to get it.

All during that time (nearly from it's inception - though it was free for the first little while - maybe a year at most) all the artists who uploaded material to it, except for the FAs got nothing at all out of the deal. In fact it was a sims 1 artist (I wish I could remember her name but alas I can't) who made a lot of unique deco pieces and stuff for The Sims 1 game, that caused a ruckus publicly because she had lost all of her creations that she'd made and wanted to get them again but the only place they were was on TSR's servers and even though she made them and uploaded them there, she couldn't download them without having a paid subscription to get them. So I guess because she caused a ruckus publicly and most people sided with her thinking that it was only fair (and I agree) they decided to allow the uploaders free access to their own stuff - but ONLY their own stuff. Anything else the uploaders got free had to be in the freebies rotations like anyone else going to the site whether they created anything and posted it there or not. But TSR didn't mind selling this stuff that the creators made and not giving them even a cent on it. The FAs on the other hand like I said always got paid and still do.

Then along comes incentive days for creators. Fine okay, well now they can get get access to some of the things they might want that isn't in freebies rotations, but you have to wait until you have 5,000 paid subscriber downloads on your stuff before you can get that one free day. It's a step in the right direction I suppose, but not much of a step. But then they upped that amount to needing 10,000 paid subscriber downloads to get one incentive day.

Now we have something new added to the deal here - Kudos. Kudos were meant to be used to buy things but what they have to buy is a paltry few things for the non-artists in the community and for the artists it's nothing really but a lot of hot air - like having the little picture in the "feature" spot for artists which rotates, or your name in the newsletter or to "buy" background colours and counters for your page and if you really want to splurge a mini-site (which will probably get taken away from you after 3 months of inactivity even if you bought it with kudos). I know my friend's mini-site got taken away from her for inactivity after 3 months. So they shouldn't be saying you can "buy" a mini-site, to me the correct term would be "rent with conditions attached". But you still had your incentive days that you earned that you could take anytime, until recently. Now there are no more incentive days separate from the kudos - they're all under the kudos and as such you can only take 3 of those a month. Now I'd like to know the last time anyone had an employer who told them how to spend and how often they could spend their earnings? Seems to me, that if you earn something, it's yours to use how you want. At least here in the civilized part of the world it is. Obviously it isn't in Thomas'Slave Regime though. Given that some people can barely get the 10,000 downloads needed for a single incentive day, it doesn't seem fair to me that TSR should dictate when and how often they can use them.

Yeah I know it was done only recently and that now you only need incentive days to get only the FAs stuff, as that's still paid. But still for some people getting 10,000 downloads for a single day's worth of free access to the site will take them a very long time. By the time they get their day they may've forgotten what they wanted it for in the first place.

Oh and did I mention that a new "perk" (read a new angle to generate yet more subscriptions) for SAs is that they have free access to the entire site now? No they're not being paid like the FAs who also have free access to the entire site (and always did - that's how they managed to download enough material to sabotage people even when the site was strictly paid) but they do have free access to all the material including the FAs stuff. That's supposed to be a "perk". Yeah right - it's more like it's a new idea of Thomas' to try to generate new subs by allowing the SAs the right to get the meshes, so that they can then recolour them and post their recolours of them. That way the people who come for the freebies will see all of these nice recolours (well if the SAs don't abide by that new paint factory explosion rule they ought to be nice that is) and will want to pay to get the meshes required for them.

Which leads me to the meshes..... And the FAs.... In a lot of those cases FA should stand for Fraud Artist, since a lot of them use already made meshes freely available on the 3d mesh sites out there (many of which forbid selling or reselling their meshes in their terms of use) that they merely import into the game and retexture. One of them was caught out and had to lose his FAship and is merely an SA now. But I'm sure if you want to comb through all the 3d mesh sites and see which meshes you recognize amongst them (because most of them are not modified - only resized to suit the games proportions and for SimPe to be able see and import them - because most of them have polygons etc too high for SimPe to be able to handle - so those have to be lowered usually), I'm sure you'll be surprised at all the ones you recognize and which artists used them. So this is what you're being sold in a lot of cases - illegal goods that were ripped off and being sold against the terms of use by the original creators of them.

So that's what TSR is and how it operates and treats it's creators. And if you want to use me as a classic example whereby they used and abused and made money on me and then when I asked for a simple public apology from the owner, got banned and all my stuff yanked off there, then that's probably the best example you'll find of how they treat their artists and people who've helped pay their rent and put food on their table (it's the artists who contributed to them, that are the people who pay Thomas' rent and puts food on his table and gas in his tank and pays for the servers that TSR runs on) while giving diddly-squat back besides a pretty pink page with a silver badge over the top of my avatar's head back. Like I can do a lot with that. It's not even tangible enough to use to as toilet paper - which is basically all it'd be good for anyhow.

And all I have to say to any of the subscribers or would-be subscribers to TSR is that your continued support and payments to them only encourages this kind of behaviour and makes it continue unabated. If you really do care about the artists and what they go through to get those pretty little must haves to you for your games, you'll boycott TSR until it collapses into the ground and help fund a site/server that creators can upload to for free to take some of the strain off of MTS2.

And all I have to say to all the TSR artists out there is - my case could be your case very easily - just look at Thomas the wrong way and it will be, or if any of you ladies out there are getting all cosy cosy with Atwa, watch out for the lying backstabbing two-faced bitch because once she's finished using you for whatever purpose she's using you she'll have you thrown out of TSR too.

There are other places out there on the net to post your stuff if you really must post your items. And other than the FAs who are being paid to put up with all of that abuse (and they must be being paid well enough to endure it this long too) I don't see why any other artists who aren't getting anything out of the deal feel compelled to help feed and clothe that tyrant named Thomas. He's not doing anything for you - all he's doing is using you. And I really don't see why you would want to upload your material there without being paid if the FAs are getting paid. It should be fair for all the artists - who dictates that your stuff is any better or any worse than anyone else's? The download numbers? Hardly - especially if you aren't getting the frontpage exposure the FAs are getting, or make niche material. Just because Thomas like's it better than something else? Gag puke barf - if Thomas likes it then it must be crap - perfect example he likes Atwa and her stuff. Okay? Enough said. So you should be entitled to be paid like the FAs for your material. If you're not, why are you uploading there? To get kudos for incentive days where the rules on those change every half hour or at Thomas' whim or can be taken away without warning? Why bother, you'll find better stuff elsewhere than what's in the FA's material - they don't make anything so innovative or ew-aw great & must have (most of it is just another room set or deco but nothing innovative like Echo's carousel or Katie's items she posted on her board) - not compared to a lot of the good artists on MTS2 and the now closed PC-Sims board. So I wouldn't waste any time there at all as a creator, downloader or subscriber after having read this and being enlightened as to what it is and what goes on there.  End of story.

For substantiated evidence see all the the files here:
 
http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/netseeker2s_creations/ . Read them thoroughly and you'll have a much better and clearer idea of all the workings behind the scenes with evidence and substantiations to what I'm saying.

netseeker2

Wow, that was like Tolstoy long.  Anyways, it's really not anything new that we don't already know, but thanks for sharing more reasons to hate TSR, not that we need them.

But, I do think you are being ridiculous when you talk about not getting paid like FA's.  If you think you are entitled to getting something back for creating and sharing those creations, you're in the wrong place.  Getting money for your sims creations is WRONG.  Read the front page of PMBD again until you understand.  Until then, don't dare post about how you are entitled to compensation.

I think what she means is that FA's are getting a cut, why shouldn't she?  If TSR is raking in all this money, and FAs are using her materials and getting paid for them and she created those materials, and TSR is expecting her to churn out xxx amount of uploads, then she is essentially doing a job for them.  


Netseeker, correct me if I am wrong about that assumption.

But, an enlightening post, thank you for taking the time to give the information.

This is why no one should be paid at all - sets up a standard whereby free artists are shit on the feet of paid employees.

And we've known Thomas was a dirty thieving bastard for a while - and Atwa is lower.  :lol:

Sherrie's video will make you feel better. http://hidebehind.com/F470D3

THAT is an excellent point, Calalily.  Thanks

Well to be paid to people are forced to cheat so they can make things faster, by stealing poser and 3DS free meshes an converting them.
Really at that point you are doing it to get paid, meet deadline, not because you love the game. So you begin to cut corneres, where you wouldn't do that if you were doing it just for fun.

SA's and all the other contributors were taken advantage of, just so they can have an occasional free day to access the sub stuff. So rhey were exploited.

I didn't get that Netseeker was looking to be paid at all, just doing a comparison for kudo's verses being paid. Which you can actually see. I am so thankful I never got caught up in that mess. That I left after just a couple weeks of being there. Netseeker, you could also call EA, ask to speak to the legal dept, and tell them you have some evidence files they might be interested in seeing. But, don't be too surprised if they already know about this thread. They seem to know a lot of what we do and say here. lol

Thanks for posting this, Netseeker.  Hard evidence of Thomass and Atwat's misbehavior is always welcome.

I think it says a lot that so few pro-TSR people get involved in this debate - if you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all.   :roll:

I didn't get that either, its just you have 2 tiers there 2 consequences.

FA-forced to meet deadlines crank it out and all that to make money...
the SA s and other free folks got to make lots and lots just for an occasional free day. Either way its basd, the only one that profits is the TSR owners.

I agree with Diane conttact EA legal to, Netseeker. Im glad you are out of there Netseeker. Its no fun being used.

TSR has always been like that.  The whole drop your rating thing has been going on forever.  As soon as you reach gold your rating begins to drop.  My rating (this was a couple of years ago) drop like crazy one night at 3.00 am USA time on a recolor of a coffe table.  It was the strangest thing I ever saw.  I bitch about it on one of the forum like everyone else did.  

Long story short- I didn't care about FA, I didn't want demands on me about making sims stuff, real life has to many demand to worry about tsr.
 Went to MTS2 and uploaded there.  I was offered to work at another paysite and refuse that offer.  I liked to make stuff as a hobbie and felt that I learned all this stuff for free why should I turn around and make a profit off it.

The 10,000 download thing change again.  I just had 10,000  from sets from 2005 (I just checked last night) Now you have to 11,000 downloads as of 8-29-07 to earn 5000 kudos which I don't know how many the of them would be "spendable kudos"  It's insane that site with all it's rules to try and squeeze money out of people.  Not much going on there anyway with the FA making stuff anymore.  The whole Sims 2 thing looks like its coming to a close , I guess tsr can hope for Sims 3 if the downloading  remains the same  way as it is today.  They also would have to hope someone comes along and makes free tools for them to use.

I agree Soupie and Hawk, I didn't get that either from what she said.  

Netseeker2, I do have a question.  How is TSR recruiting all of these high profile artists?  And what is the relationship between TSR and EA?

Netseeker2 has given me another reason to hate TSR and to want to destroy it. It is no longer about me just hating them because I hate Thomas, it's about hating them for the lowlife thievery, the backstabbing and the mistreatment. It isn't right. TSR definitely needs to go down in a fiery ball of death and destruction.

What I was saying for those who don't get it, is that everyone should be treated fairly. That if one artist has to indicate precisely which expansion pack something is from when they post it, then everyone ought to. If one artist is getting paid then everyone ought to. They should have a consistant set of rules for everyone and not just for some if they want to maintain fairness. And that if you're going to "pay/reward" someone for doing something for you, and they earned that "pay/reward", it's their's now and not yours to take back and just negate by cancelling their account or whatever. And that if you feel you can berate people publicly for speaking the truth in closed private forums and then have them to come back and produce stuff to lure people in for your business without a public apology in that same forum (where the person being berated isn't being paid, so it's not like I was his employee and he was berating me in a backroom where other employees heard) and then because of the demand for a public apology you yank all of that person's stuff off of there and then on top of that ban them even though they still had 43 days on a subscription plus over 846,000 kudos earned that they could've used, you're not only an arrogant SOB but a thief as well (it's like if I earned money and he went into my bank account and took it back - which fortunately here in the civilized world where I live cannot be done even by an irate employer).  I am trying to show the unjustness and inequities that goes on in that place (not just to me but to everyone).  That if it can happen to me it can happen to anyone and everyone on there. And maybe already has happened to others, but we don't know about it *yet*.

That I wouldn't know the answer to for sure, all I know is he does solicit off site by checking out other sites and then emailing the artists and offering them a "position" on TSR first as just an artist in the ranks for a few months (so that they're not recruited and made FA raw from offsite - and so it gives the users a chance to see their name and get used to the fact that they're there). But I also have a feeling that some of the paysites that are getting hit by this group, are closing up and offering to post their material there in return for an FAship. These artists objectives is and probably always has been to make money on their work and so when their site or method of money making is being jeopardized and they can't handle the pressure put on them from this site, they close up shop and migrate to TSR - so in a way I think this site is basically helping TSR get some of the artists that run some of the other paysites.

Please no crawling down my back about this, it's just a conjecture I have after seeing some of the sites in the booty section and their last postings there and in the inactive section (and in some cases it coincides with when those FAs  who are FAs there now had their sites closed/jeopardized by this group).

I'm sorry, but not surprised, that you got shafted, Netseeker.  And you're right, it's a sign of contemptible behavior--as well as bad planning--that the rules always change, in management's favor.  Yet more evidence that TSR is to be shunned.  Thomas has taken what was once a great site and has recreated it in his own image. :evil:

As for Raveena, I have a special dislike for her.  She WAS a decent sims 1 artist, but has nothing to show for her sims 2 work. Except for her inflated head.  For her to get righteous with you is a laugh.

And I know for a fact--because my game kept on crashing--that many of the FA's don't bother to list needed x-packs for the things they make.  So it does seem as if you were singled out on that score.

You're well rid of those people.

It's a shame you let ThomARSE con you into going back by making ATWAT an FA. He must have chosen her as she was the cheapest to pay so for the price of her, he got to continue selling your creations.

At least ATWAT can be happy to know the real reason behind her promotion.

If there are paysiters who are willing to not go free and be berated and mistreated by TSR because of us I think a few of us would say that we have no hand in that. They have other options too. Such as MTS2, a free host, or even hosting their creations on LiveJournal or Blogspot. They have options even if the only one they see is payment.

Thank you for sharing your story with us, Netseeker.  

I'm sorry you went through with what you did but I feel you were also very smart about having evidence so it's not just a "he said, she said" situation!  Hopefully from all this you will not have to experience this in the future.

Thomass is scum.  I hope he gets back what's coming to him real soon.

Wow......what an ass he is. Sorry you went thru this. And it seems a shame to me that everyone has had to resort to taking pics of conversations, etc to prove what happened between two parties.

So many LIARS in this community, makes me sick.  :evil:

Thanks for sharing your story, netseeker. Adding yours to the stories of Sherrie, IcedMango, Solander, and Twig, no one can say it's just a disgruntled artist. Clearly there's a serious pattern of insanity and abuse.

Everone:  Don't forget that if you want to help destroy TSR, you can contact me via PM.

guh. thomas is such a dink, I'm sorry you got boned so badly netseeker - that's the exact reason why I don't even have an account on TSR to snoop with...I don't want anything to do with them.

it's just a shame to see the GOOD ones treated like garbage by them while the bad ones like Atwat run rampant (aside: if I wanted to pay for a twat on the net, I'd give my credit card to a porn site :roll:) with their MSPaint creations. I don't condone paysites at all but ffs, don't you want quality over quantity when it comes to taking people's monies?

people should create because they enjoy it and want to contribute to the community, not because someone's cracking a whip at them to churn out cookie cutter crap.

She's always known, she engineered the whole thing.

*waves hi to Netseeker*

Amazing after reading all of this about tsr from many different creators that anyone there can still defend the place. And that people still vie for the "coveted" FA status.

 :?

FA = fiscally aspired, imo.

I thought you were being facetious in your little video. Now that I've read all those emails, a novel in one day. I see you were being serious. She (Anita) has it bad for Thomas, and he probably is making her think there is hope for the two of them. I'm willing to bet we'd find similar emails between him and Suzy as well, she follows behind him like a long lost puppy looking for scraps. Defending her man and his board. While he pretends to be someone else. Thomas seems to be yet another that suffers from the paranoid dellusions of, "They're all out to get me, even the people on my own board. I hear the whispers. Tell me what did you hear? Did you find out anything?" Then Suzy and Anita stand behind him, it's all true I heard the whispers too, honey. Give me just have a few moments to make up some things, so you'll be happy. Just another soap opera only the names have change. Maybe Jan/Jan/Bev/Thomas are in reality all the same person. Sybil the remake.

As far as this part of your theory goes, I hope you're right, as it would be even more evidence of the impact PMBD is having on the overall performance of paysites.

It also would make a lot of sense. Before, it was almost frustrating to hear about yet another creator heading over to TSR. It seemed like Thomas had some sort of incredible sway over creators. Your theory, if correct, just confirms that it was simply the desire of these creators to continue to suck money out of the community after their own sites were failing.

Thanks for taking a stand and posting, netseeker. For my part, I believe that the more people can see what kind of crap goes on behind the scenes at tsr, the more likely they are to see what a bunch of bullshitters Thomas and his gang really are.

As Pesc said in some other antique post:   Good, if they're all in the same place that means only 1 subscription!

*waves hi back to Sherrie* :)

People still do.

I'm glad that netseeker2 is no longer there also. I'm glad to see you out of such a nasty situation at a nasty place (I didn't mention that before, forgive me).

I find it sad that so many FAs and just general downloaders think that TSR is just such a nice little place to go and get your goodies and that everything is so fair and decent there. I'm glad that we have creators that come here and tell us what really goes on.

Thank you so much everyone for such incredible understanding and support. I was reluctant to come here (well I guess part of that was the brainwashing I underwent by Atwa et al) but I have to say I am 100% totally impressed with all of you and all of your rationale and behaviour. For once in my TS2 life I've actually started a thread that got to be pretty near 2 pages long without any verbal abuse directed towards me. That alone is something (I have to mark that one on a calendar somewhere).  But I really never expected to see all of your rationale and reasoning on this the way it has evolved, I thought for sure when I was asked about how they recruited from off site part of my answer would unleash a fury of attacks against me. Instead you all actually realize the way it was meant when I wrote it. Wow that is totally impressive!  :lol:   :D  So thank you so much again for allowing me to post my anti-TSR diatribe in here and for actually understanding it the way it was written, without attacking me over it. Your behaviour and even level of intelligence far outweighs anything I've seen on TSR ever in any of the forums there.  I will say that.

The difference, netseeker, is that unlike TSR we are not sheeple.  You won't see posts being deleted over here.  :)

Netseeker, we welcome you.

We are very pro-creator here. You guys make the game more fun.

We actually use "destroy" in a tongue in cheek fashion: we actually want sites to be liberated and to go free, and will help those who ask for help.

On the other hand, if the girl from Firestarter was lurking here at PMBD, I suspect that TSR's servers would have been melted down into smoking slag puddles by now. Frankly, I would celebrate if TSR were actually destroyed, but it is the only site I feel personal animosity towards.

There have been too many tales from creators who were abused, or had their creations held for ransom. Creators who had to pay to access their own work, and who could not get it removed without getting EA to intervene. There are too many tales of "intrigue" and two-faced politicking and censorship.

TSR lies about the EULA, and lies only to keep the gravy train chugging along. TSR lies and claims we have no documentation from EA that proves that paysites are defying the EULA and engaging in illegal activities. TSR talks to Maxoids (who are no longer involved in the legality or EULA or policy of The Sims, because MAXIS is now owned by EA, thus EA's rules apply, not Maxis' rules) and since they are out of the loop and contradict each other, they only post what seems to support their claims that they have every right to use EA's tools, free toys made by pro-freesite creators, copyrighted logos / brand names / works of art / textures / photographs / characters / businesses / celebrity images / more,  and Poser (etc) meshes that belong to other people to milk money out of the gullible sheeple.

The EULA is clear. The bandwidth excuse loophole is over. No commercial profit can be made off of the Sims. To make a buck is to defy the EULA, and even IF the EULA changed, you still agreed to the base game EULA and other SP/EP EULAs. Making a profit off of EA's intellectual property, or with files that require the Sims game engine to function is VERBOTEN, and no amount of weaseling around changes that fact.

Paysites are a bloodsucking plague, and TSR is the biggest tick of them all. The fact that they abuse their creators and fuck around with earnings and ratings and other stats to avoid even sticking to their own illegal, fucked-up business model and delete / censor posts and monitor IPs and PMs and lurk over here, hoping to find someone else to punish or ban or block just makes them more clumsy and nasty than most.

Thieves! Liars! The need to be burninated with extreme prejudice. Only the most stupid site would actually bite the hand that feeds, and who is making the big bucks for TSR? Creators.

Of course, the good news is that the more desperate they get, and the worse their abuse becomes, the better we "pirates" can feel about it, because it shows that PMBD is sending them into Aspiration Failure. Sorry, can't cry too hard about that.

In fact, this calls for more rum! *shares*

But, hey, what doesn't call for rum? Rum is good! Rum for everyone!

The Thomas/Atwa thing reminds me of a hundred mystery novels I've read in which a younger man cozies up to an older woman to get something from her. The only thing I still don't understand is, why Atwa? My only hypothesis so far is that Thomas, as a con artist, never stops conning. That's how he naturally deals with everyone, and she's prime sucker material.

I just wanted to say Thanks Netseeker for sharing your story with us. After reading it I don't know how you put up with it for so long. Would have be way too much drama for me.  :roll:

As you have discovered the Pirates are not as mean as everyone is lead to believe by pay site owners.  :D

(http://img294.imageshack.us/img294/4179/piratesmeanzz2.jpg)

Priceless Cala!  :D  Maybe we should put that on the front page.  On second thought, that sign does not include the Dread Pirate himself.

Netseeker2, I'm glad you gave us a chance, glad you posted what you did and glad that you hung around to respond.  That takes moxi.  So, I'll pass the rum along to you. *cheers*

Thanks for posting netseeker. I think you did some good in yet again exposing the reasons why TSR sucks more than any other paysite. I would be glad to see them destroyed.

True. Taking advantage of a sad and pathetic, old and lonely, untalented spinster, who has little or no talent, just like the unfortunately untalented atwa has no talent whatsoever, shows the depths of depravity Thomas is willing to sink to in order to make a buck.

It almost makes you feel for the poor, untalented, old and decrepit, untalented thing. (But not really)

I too want to thank you Netseeker for posting your story. It's  a motivator for our work.

I am really proud of the fact that people can come here and tell their stories, it's like a refugium.  :wink:

Wow.
What a train wreck that place is.
*shakes head sadly*

Netseeker, welcome to PMBD, the pirate's haven...lol.
I'm sorry you had such a terrible go of it, but atleast now you have open eyes. TSR is and always has been, and always will be, the biggest rip-off in the sims 'community'.
Comgrats on your new status as a refugee...you'll find much nicer people here than anyone ever will at TSR.

Well, hell.
Cala FTW!

Can you believe, I actually found this on google (while trying to find the picture of atwa and tomAss together to turn him into a vampire)

(http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/9376/tomassgs8.png)

How fucking fitting is that?  :lol:

And yet another reason google is our friend.  :lol:

One problem with that picture: We're not the Empire; we're the Rebel Alliance.

Although I suspect even Darth Vader would be pretty sick of Thomass's shit, so maybe it's still appropriate?

I think Darth is well and truly sick of TomAss.  Perhaps this one is more appropriate:

(http://img102.imageshack.us/img102/493/joinmeta3.jpg)

I'm very sorry this happened to you, netseeker. I am glad that you are standing up for yourself, instead of backing down on this. That says a lot about you (in a good way!), and it was very smart to keep the evidence! I can't say I would have done the same, if I am upset I don't think about that sort of thing. WTG!

Thank you for the welcome, much appreciated.

You are very correct about all of those illegalities and I do know of other sites that's been closed because of infringing only one of them, so I'm wondering why that place hasn't been shut down long ago? Doesn't anyone ever try to use legal means to get them shut down or to sue them? Or is Sweden a country with a legal status kind of like Switzerland and the Caymans financial status in the world? A place where you can do whatever you want and get away with it? Just wondering? That would seem to be the only answer I can come up with - that Sweden has international immunity to legal suits from other places in the world.

Thank you Armywife,

No shortage of moxi here (if you knew me personally and my life story you'd know why).

But I have to say that quote that was in your signature about right to remain silent and anything I say will be twisted and used against me, should be the warning posted over at TSR because that's what happens there on a daily basis (not just to me but probably to lots of  others there as well).

:lol:   It's actually there in honor of paysites and their policies.  :lol:

Thank you Shinyfairylights,

I don't normally think to keep evidence like that either, except I learned a long time ago by someone (a modern day version of a pirate if you will - a biker - because I am and always a puny little thing) when he felt the flinch of my shoulders (after he had saved my life when I was 14 - my hair was on fire and he put it out with his hands) and after talking to me see if I was alright he started to walk me back to where his buddies were congregated and they started their usual snarls and innuendos and I flinched. So he stopped me right there and turned me around to face him and bent over and looked in my eyes and said "never get scared, get mad instead".  That stayed with me all my life and so that's the way I operate. I used to do the girl thing of getting scared, cowering and crying in corners but since I found out snarling back at the scarey guys is more effective that's what I do. Then a lawyer friend of mine used the "don't get scared, get even" quote so I combined the two - now I get mad and get even but not scared.  

But to get even you need something to get even with and in this case it's evidence.  And having had a history there and knowing how they operate by deleting posts and calling the poster a liar I thought, "oh yeah liar eh? I'll show you who's lying you little bastard" and accumulated the evidence because I knew I wasn't going back as an artist (SA or not) until I got a public apology from Thomas and I know he's too proud to do that, so I knew it was just a matter of time that this was coming, so prepared for it.

I hope this message hasn't been posted a bazillion times - if it has I'm sorry - it seems that everytime I hit the submit button the cable modem goes offline...

 Thomass is more like a PIMP  :twisted:  someone needs to make a paint explosion pimp suit for Thomass for the upcoming movie

Just pick and choose some textures from Atwat's collection. I'm sure any of them will coordinate well with pimpdom.

Glad your here Netseeker!
We all love you and do care about you! :D

Since I am Swedish, I am the best person to answer this, even though I am not at all an expert. But I assure you we cannot do anything we want here, and that tsr is breaking Swedish laws. As for the actual procedures, I don't know.

We are currently reforming our laws for what is happening on the internet - a big debate is going on - but that is mostly concerning file sharing - free file sharing. Which tsr is not even close to be about.


Edit:
If you're interested in what the debate is about you can check out http://piratbyran.org/ (all in Swedish, but there's some interesting links, of you can find the page ;) )
Also we have a real pirate party in Sweden that mainly have internet and privacy issues on its agenda. http://www.piratpartiet.se/international/english

The giant is toppling over.

Don't poke it when it's down though, it'll fart.

I wonder what Swedish farts smell like?

Believe me, not good...  :shock:

They're as gross as American farts...trust me I've hosted several exchange students from Sweden. Love them all, they still visit me. Now I am told...I had a Russian student, ok have to share this story. Just remember you brought up the farts you and Nouk. I had a new puppy (Dobbie) and we were going somewhere. Anyway, my Russian exchange student was really attached to the puppy and didn't want him riding in the back of the truck alone, even though it was closed in. So were going along and all of a sudden she opens the little windows between the truck and woooooooooo. My daughter said, did you fart? She said no when Russian's fart is smells like roses. Then she said but the dog I believe has farted everywhere! I pulled over and that poor thing I don't know how stayed back there as long as she did. I said why didn't you let me know, so you could come up front with us? She said because the first time he farted it went everywhere, it was too late. hehehe Needless to say it was not a fart. God love her, she had a great personality. Always had me either laughing or wanting to kill her. She just attached to things really quick, and didn't want to leave. I don't know why, but she would take little things from me, nothing important. But, I'd go to look for it, and she would have it wrapped like a piece of gold, she said so she could take part of me back to Russia with her. I would take it back and tell her you can't do that, and she'd do it again and again. I couldn't go to the airport with her because I knew she didn't want to leave, and I probably would have told her don't go. So I made my husband do it. He said it was the hardest thing he ever did.

What laws are you referring to and who would have any grounds for a lawsuit?

Lutefisk, pickled herring and creamy meatballs?

Swedish meatballs are so good, Hakan used to make them for me from his mother's recipe. I miss him the most of all my exchange students, when he's not here. I really loved that kid like my own. His mother and brother are good people also.

I am by no means an expert. I just know that there has been a lot of talk and lawsuits concerning copyrighted material on the internet. But I don't know the specifics nor am I good at legal issues.
Check out this page though: http://piratbyran.org/?view=links
if you scroll down you will find a header that says "Upphovsrätt" which means 'copyright'.  Below it are a list of links regarding copyright law. Of course, most of it are in Swedish, so I think you'd have a better chance at using Google. There must be some source in english somewhere. As I said, I am not an expert.  :roll:

EDIT: after a quick search I found this link concerning Swedish copyright law, it's all in English:
http://www.sweden.gov.se/sb/d/2707/a/15195
Oh, and it also displays contact information, in case you have any questions.

ignore nohead/nobrain; he's a troll

if everyone simply posts like his dont exist, maybe he will slink back to whereever the paysite he belongs to

LOL Yaardarm Monkey, thanks for the heads up.   :lol:  I am so democratic, I didn't pay attention to whose post I was replying to.  :roll:

this is the trollish actions of nobrain (http://phorum.mustnotbenamed.com/search.php?search_author=nohead)


 :wink:

Actually, I think you did everyone here a favour. Now we all know which gov't body in Sweden and their contact info so that we can enlist their help in getting rid of TSR, especially if gov't agencies in Sweden are anything like Cdn gov't agencies. You can make anonymous tips to the gov't about law contraventions and they take care of the rest without asking you for your identity or anything. I'm sure the Swedish gov't recognizes the fact that Disney owns the rights to all the Disney copyrighted material on there and NOT TSR, etc. So perhaps all we have to do is give them a heads up as to what's going on on TSR and they'll take care of the rest for you.

It's very obvious that nohead is a tsr insider.
Ignoring it is the best policy.

Nohead is just being a twit. He has to do that from time to time, because he misses us. Wants to make sure we don't forget him. He knows perfectly well there is a lot on TSR that is already copyrighted being sold and it is against the law in many countries. Just ignore him.

And now for something completely different. My balls itch.

The parrot is only sleeping. No, really.  :roll:

(http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x121/britpoptarts/CatMacros/nobody-expects.jpg)

Lulz.



(http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x121/britpoptarts/CatMacros/nicethings.jpg)

Stupid nohead.

For anyone else this information would be useful, but as we know by now nohead does not believe in finding data or researching information because it is "unreasonable". (Sob) And all that hard work you did too! :lol:

Where the hell is Calalily?  She just loves nohead.  Once she reads all the facts about it, and posts said facts, he will be like a bad dream.

Paden - stop scratchin your balls in public.  Gah!  Can't take you anywhere!

:shock:

I think i just lost my dinner (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v451/Witchboy/Smileys%20Ect/upchuck.gif)

Paden those are some BIG, Hairy balls you have there :lol:

Pickled herring, lutefisk and Swedish meatballs, certainly. Also beer. Lots and lots and lots of beer. Or maybe that's just Swedish-Americans.

I was sleepin and workin - I work because I have no paysite  :cry: .  nohead is just a troll who thinks it will make us see the light - possibly through lack of cunning argument.  His last statement when confronted with actual case law that is a precedent for paysites being sued:

*****Beware reading below - this lack of cunning argument may make you see the light and stop filesharing*****************




This gave rise to my signature for the last month (which I change everytime I update).  

nohead also asks other cunning questions such as "What if you make paysite owners cry?" and "So what if it's illegal - EA isn't doing anything". And other such gems:







Now, (http://img120.imageshack.us/img120/6436/hotlinkse1.jpg)

I don't know about you guys, but this seriously made me rethink filesharing when presented with these cunning arguments - particularly the life thing.  :lol:

OK, so it's the copyrighted stuff (ala Disney) you refer to when you say they are breaking laws then, i got the impression it had something to do with the EULA?

For clarification, in case someone clicks the why nohead's a troll link, the search result doesn't display quotes properly so it looks like it's me being uncivil, it's not :).

Why don't you go start a forum about "Copyright violations must be destroyed" - start now - you've got a big job - very important !!1!



No, you're boring, you have no case law to back you up, and your arguments suck.

calalily: i'm sorry for the not having a life comment, it was not meant to be taken so seriously. I don't know you and have no idea of how your life is, please accept my apologies.

Accepted - I've been called worse before by the paysite side.  

I believe that it shows just how nasty paysite supporters really are - so every single time I get insulted, I remember it, and the next time people tell me about "respect for others" I pull out my notepad file, and inform them differently.  It truly weakens their argument - and shows them as the cowards they are.  :D

One thing's for sure, if nohead can apologize publicly in a forum somewhere it isn't Thomas.

lol Thomas isn't a robot. He's also not a bad man, people forget who they are, when it comes to money. They change. Have you ever heard the expression? The way to change a man from your friend to your enemy, is to lend him money. Or, if you lend a friend money, make it a gift. Even in the bible, which contains some of the oldest documents available to man. It says you cannot have two God's, God and Money. Money brings out the worse in people, they do things they normally wouldn't do; for more. That's also why it says: It is easier for a rich man to find a needle in a haystack, then it is for him to enter the kingdom of heaven. Because that is basically what they are doing, always searching for more money. Refusing to see all the riches they already have. All proverbs, all meaning the same thing. I'm quite sure we could find proverbs on money in some of the ancient Buddist texts, as well as a lot of the apocrypha.

They always want to concentrate on one area the EULA. So that is what we have to argue with them. What was the first thing Nohead said, when it came to what laws are they breaking? Oh I thought it had to do with the EULA. That's like holding the middle piece of the puzzle, and unable to find all the other pieces. The EULA is the center, or core. There are many branches off of it. I personally think it's because as long as they think of it in terms of a company, they don't have to look at the human side of it. Makes it a little easier to sleep at night.

See, whenever someone makes some sort of "get a life" comment, I read it as "My argument has no merit. I know you've realized this, and I can't come up with anything that makes me look good. Therefore, I'm going to use a 2nd grade insult in the hopes that it will hurt your little feelings and make you cry, taking the focus off of how stupid I am."

In this case, it's accurate.

I see him as a bad man. Anyone who treats people the way he does and sends spies to sneak around to see what everyone else who isn't petting him are talking about is a complete viper.

If money is the root of all evil then Thomas is evil by association.

Now, now. I'm willing to bet if you took away TSR from him, you'd find he's not evil. Remember the Sims1 days? Steve and Thomas were not bad men, or evil. It wasn't till they figured out they could make money off it they they got the way they are now. Even when they first became a paysite they used to make sure everything was cycled out, so even those that couldn't afford it, got the pay things. They could have blown MTS2 out of the water with all the members they had, if they had just done what they asked Will. Asked for donations. Monthly donators. Most the problems they have over there, that they need these spies for? They have done to themselves. Not us, not Delphy, Them. Like now? What did Thomas think would happen joining that Save the Sims community? He saw what was going on over there and he joined anyway. I prefer to think of it more than evil, as they lost their flippin minds. lol

You do have a point there, Hawkgirl.

The ip Nohead used on Sims2community originated from Sweden.
He will be able to use the Swedish information just fine.

Sorry to argue with you over this but after all the dealings I've had with that thing that tries to impersonate a human being (but is doing a terrible job at it), I'd have to disagree with you there. Thomas is a very proud, arrogant, domineering idiot. Someone who is like that would not deign to offer someone else an apology here or anywhere - because they can't do it - it's not in them to be able to apologize for fear that that would make them look like they did something wrong and according to what I saw, doncha know Thomas thinks he's God and doesn't ever do anything wrong - it's everyone else who's wrong - but not him. NEVER. We're all the thieves and liars and idiots but not him. Excuse me but most men unless they are Meglomaniacs don't think they're god and can just do whatever they want and get away with it, without saying sorry or suffering the repercussions of it.

Sorry I missed this earlier in the thread, was just re-reading the thread now and noticed what you said here.

One thing I think this site is overlooking is that EA games or Maxis (whichever - because they're one & the same now) is in cahoots with TSR. It should be obvious to you that they are. I mean why else would Steve Bonham keep getting invited to their headquarters for the scoop on the new games and expansion packs if they weren't? You don't see Delphy getting invited there, nor Quaxi, nor Numenor nor anyone else in the free community, do you? Or at least I haven't heard of any of them being invited so far.  Why don't they invite Delphy and give him the scoop on something if they're so against TSR making money on their product and opt instead to help out the other guy who's just doing it because he likes their product like Delphy?

You know years ago when home computers first came on the scene, I & my husband had a users group and companies helped the users groups out a lot by giving them free software and equipment. Heck I even had an engineer from Western Digital come over to my house to adjust the CMOS on my computer to accept the first IDE drives on the market - which he did for free - because Western Digital gave me the IDE drive but it didn't work. We had a user group and it was free and we didn't make any money on anything and when we talked about computer hardware or software we voiced our honest opinions of them. Even still the software and hardware companies had no problems whatsoever not only giving us the material but also the support.  So if big companies can and did do things like that for small user groups, why is it Maxis/EA can't do something like that for the smaller free sites that support their game? They don't and the only reasons why I can see they don't is either because it might hurt their interest (yes they may have some kind of intellectual or financial interest)  or can't be bothered because they think it may hurt them too if they were to bring TSR down. (Either as a backlash in the community for having brought them down, or a dwindling user base because now there's less content in the community).  So why would they care/worry about what happened to me on TSR if they don't even seem to care that TSR is contravening their own license agreements?

But what they may not understand is that by giving a little support here and there (maybe based on capacity and size of the site) to the free sites out there and more support (financial and invitations to get the scoops) to the bigger sites like Delphy's is that if they did that, there wouldn't be a backlash in the community, nor would there be a dwindling user base, because now there are plenty of places available for everyone to post their work without all the headaches of financing these things all by the users selves. I know they will say they tried to provide a place with the exchange, but for the community at large that's not good enough - for one thing it's base of downloads is too narrow (sims, and lots only) and for other it's near impossible to find even specific EA content on there let alone a specific user's stuff who isn't a part of the EA staff. So if they want to keep the exchange still they can but if not they can abolish it and start to fund the other free sites out there and keep them operational - or better yet not fund them but provide free server space for these sites (that way there's no accusations of misuse of funds going around the community on account of that).  There's ways to take TSR down and still maintain their image in the community, if they really wanted to. Thing is it doesn't appear that they really want to, or it'd have been done long ago.

I'm sorry to say but harping on the EULA isn't going to get you anywhere, you have to go after them for all the other infringements they've done and that's where that Swedish gov't link the other user provided is very valuable. Not to mention all the  companies who's copyright images appear on content on TSR's site.

And as an after-thought.... See what a little support can do? Years later (I'm talking about 20 years later now) I'm still citing what Western Digital did - that's called the best advertising you can get in sales, - word of mouth and goodwill. That one little act that they did 20 years ago still allows me to promote them today (okay before now it's been only to people I've actually met in real life, but now I'm endorsing them and how they behaved with us to the whole internet). Maybe EA/Maxis could stand to take lessons from Western Digital in that department of showing goodwill and support to those who are promoting and using their products.

Netseeker2 - I don't know if you will know the answer to this, but here goes....my theory has always been that TSR is paying some type of royalty or commission or what have you to EA, would that be a correct assumption or do you know?

EA is not doing all of this inviting, etc. for nothing.  They are corporate and the first question that a corporate person is going to ask is "What's in it for me?"  

I would also be interested in the tax filings, etc.  Since the creators are paid a direct commission based upon sales figures, so to speak, from a Human Resource perspective they are contract employees and TSR would have to issue, those who are required by their countries' laws, tax forms detailing monies earned.  Since TSR operates as a business, with paid employees and contracted employees, it should be accounting for tax revenue and self-employment taxes.  Your thoughts?

Let me also add that copyright infrigement is a bunch of bullshit.  In order to claim copyright or a derivative on existing works or copyrighted material, there must be a contractual agreement between said parties, fansites are not considered as being a contracted designer or contracted employee of EA.  Even then, the first sale right doctrine comes into play.  As I have said before, if I do not sell it, advertise it as my own, make false claims as to the derivatives, etc. there is no law currently that prohibits the Booty.

I think those of us who are aware of EA's presence in the greater gaming world know they're in on the game with TSR. Not a surprise there at all. EA has been known for its greed-driven practices (not to mention their mistreatment of employees and what not that they recently tried to remove from their Wikipedia entry so they could look clean), so them hooking up with TSR wouldn't be a surprise.

As for the little previews I've heard of free site people being invited to those little things. It probably depends on who you know and/or blow (not to be crude but that's how somethings work). Maybe they do invite Delphy and Numenor but we just don't hear about it. TSR we hear about because they toot their own horn the loudest.

hehehe....

Sorry to be laughing - I'm not laughing at you, at all, I'm just laughing to think that Thomas didn't like me enough to tell me anything let alone (well he detested me period) to take me into confidence as far as the financial and tax dealings of the site went.  I doubt he even likes Atwa enough for that. ;)  So I can't answer that. But yeah those are very valid questions and if they have an income tax department in the Swedish gov't, that's another agency you can get crawling down their backs - as we all know over here on this side of Atlantic dealing with auditors can be a real picnic and a half. So yeah it's about time he got to have a picnic too and find out what the fun is all about.

It is my opinion that EA is not in cohoots with TSR; however, Maxis may have been, and leftover Maxoids seem to be, sympathetic. However, I believe EA corporate doesn't give a rat's ass about them, and EA legal will not draw a line between TSR and othe paysites.

Well that may also be a part of the problem - having too many paysites to go after all at once. You can't sue one for doing something while you let all the others continue to get away with it. So they'd have to have a suit that named all of the paysites together - some would lose by default - simply by not appearing or having representation in the courtroom (so that would take care of them) but then if you had even 3-4 paysites with representation in the court room they may band together to try to fight it (because if one can win, they all win) and that's maybe what EA is afraid of.

The truly frustrating part is that it probably wouldnt take lawsuits at all.  Really we just need EA to make a statement that paysites are wrong and threaten to take action then the sites that continue to charge for content (which will not be many I am sure since many have said that if EA ever said you cant charge then they would stop and the threat of law action would encourage small sites for sure) could be dealt with much more easily.  

If they would just get a backbone and say "No More!"  we could all just get back to sharing nicely like we did in the very early days of sims 1.

(btw- hi netseeker!  I have been at TSR since the beginning of Sims 1 and have loved the things of yours that I have downloaded.  I am sorry to hear that you too have become a victim of thier crap but I am glad you are free of them now.)

Hec you are absolutely correct in everything you said in your post.

Netseeker, I'm sorry to hear that you were treated so badly at TSR.  One of the things I love about playing The Sims is seeing how it seems to spark the creativity in so many different people and in so many different directions.  I hope you won't let a few jerks take away your joy in making things!

When people treat me badly and I have no way to get back at them, I often think about what it must be like to be them.  And when I think about how it must be to go through life paranoid or insecure or never able to be sincere with anyone or whatever, I realize that I don't have to punish them -- just living as who they are is already a huge punishment.  And the worse of a person they are, the bigger the punishment it is to have to go through life as them.  I don't know if that thought will help you or not, but I pass it along, just in case.

Thank you Scrappysim,

For such nice comments about my stuff that you downloaded. It's truly appreciated.

And you are probably right - all it takes is EA to grow a backbone and say enough is enough. That would probably work with most if not all of the other sites, but I somehow doubt it would work with TSR. They've invested too much time and money in recruiting FAs setting up servers and lord knows what else for them to just say "okay we're free now and no one has to pay a cent" without putting up an argument if not a fight about it. That's not to mention the FA's revolting en masse because they're not going to be paid anymore either.  I think rather than go free they'd close TSR and either sell off their assets or use them for another money making purpose ( like renting server space to businesses maybe) who knows, but one thing's for sure I don't see them keeping TSR open as a free site.

Thank you Chienne,

For expressing your sympathies and sharing your coping technique with me. It's much appreciated.

I can assure you no one has taken away my joy of creating. I do still create things. But with Thomas removing all of my stuff off of TSR, (yes I can still submit to MTS2, and a few other friends in the community have offered me space on their sites and forums and servers too - all of which I declined) I have decided to retire as an artist in the community. Like I told a friend earlier tonight, I've seen too many good, nice people and brilliant artists get hurt and trampled on by others in this community (and this site you might say is where the bravest of the brave souls who fall in that category can express what happened to them - you might call it an shelter for abused creators instead of battered women - and there's a lot more creators in here with similar stories to mine who've all been used and abused in one way or another too) and I have also been hurt quite a few times (well I don't get "hurt" in the typical sense of the word - I get angry mostly as a result of something that was done to me). So I think the only way I'm going to be able to enjoy creating for the game now is if I do it for myself and for those few odd friends who may request something from me. It's supposed to be something you enjoy doing and not something you keep having to fight with everyone else over doing. I'm tired of the fighting part and now I just want the enjoyment part. Hence the reason I've retired.

A lawsuit on grounds that TSR is not licensed EA, is basically swindling money out of consumers, fraud etc.

I don't know where your getting I am harping on the EULA?? I have said OVER and OVER again the EULA is just the middle piece of the puzzle. Nohead is the one that brought up the EULA. For me the EULA is just a tiny part of this battle. It can be challenged. Some of the other crap going on a judge would throw the book at plenty of these paysites for.

In fact I said.
Copied and Pasted:
They always want to concentrate on one area the EULA. So that is what we have to argue with them. What was the first thing Nohead said, when it came to what laws are they breaking? Oh I thought it had to do with the EULA. That's like holding the middle piece of the puzzle, and unable to find all the other pieces. The EULA is the center, or core. There are many branches off of it. I personally think it's because as long as they think of it in terms of a company, they don't have to look at the human side of it. Makes it a little easier to sleep at night.

Also I don't know where your getting that only Thomas is invited to the shows? Delphy has been invited to plenty, except this last one and we all know why. There are also other fansites that are invited to the private shows, as well as private citizens. I have no website and I get invited to the private shows. I just went to one, we all could have gone. I get invited to all the shows here in CA. I will guarantee you, Thomas is NOT in cahoots with EA. With some of the Maxis employee's, probably. But not with EA. He has done more to make enemies at EA then he ever did to influence friends. And I think this little community they started has sent it all over the edge. Why would EA want to associate themselves with someone that harms EA?

When I saw that Awta was a FA, I almost shitted my pants!  Her creations suck big time!


Sims2Lvr

Just because TSR says they are, doesn't mean they are.  EA is lacklustre in doing something about this because it doesn't hurt their bottom line.  Freesites and paysites still encourage the buying of their games.



Harping about OJ murdering his wife doesn't get people anywhere either, but OJ still murdered his wife, and people should know that.  It matters not whether it "gets us anywhere" - we can't take them to court for breaking the EULA despite them breaking it - only EA can do that.  

Where it does make a difference (and for example, the reason I am here in the first place) is because the EULA is a contract that I signed, and I'll be damned if someone tries to browbeat me into forgetting that it is in fact something everyone agreed to.  I knew (and found this place soon after) that the contract that binds me, binds them as well.  It was the same with Bon Voyage - so the highly touted "EULA changes" didn't happen then.  It still says non-commercial, and that means that I can fileshare.



They'd be fighting a losing battle - there is caselaw enpointe concerning the selling of custom content - it has already been established by the 9th circuit court that it is, in fact, not legal.  http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data2/circs/9th/9656426.html

As for an argument that they would have to sue all violators as a class action - not so.  All they have to do is go after one.  They might choose TSR, or they might choose a pushover.  Once one site folds, then if anyone truly thinks that TSR wouldn't shut the next day and run away with all their money - because that is what Tom Ass cares about - that person is seriously short sighted.

Sorry,

I worded that wrong when I said "you" I didn't mean you as in you personally, but "you" and in the collective here at this site.

I had my training as a nurse and not a lawyer so I can't argue law with you least of all law from another country (which in this case is law from the US).

I never said Thomas got invited anywhere. I don't think anyone would invite him anywhere either.  I know I wouldn't - that's for sure. I said Steve Bonham gets invited. Steve Bonham so far as I know still works with and is part owner (isn't he listed as president on there somewhere?) of TSR. Therefore TSR through Steve Bonham gets an invitation.

You're lucky if you get invitations to these things - maybe living in the proximity of Electronic Arts headquarters (ie same city or state) has something to do with that? Because I live in Montreal and I didn't get an invitation. However Steve Bonham lives in England he got one.  So I don't think in his case it was because he lives in the proximity but rather because it's who he is in the community and the site he owns or co-owns. Maybe the same can be said for you but under the name you're using in here I don't recognize you. Sorry.

All I know is what I see - and that is that it appears that EA supports TSR - at least on the surface they do, but they don't appear to be supporting anyone else.

Im with Cala, EA only needs to sue to set an example. I think TSR has the biggest target on its back, and more than likely is the most prosperous as it has its own headquarters, with a staff over ten with claiming membership at ten million. If I was Thomas, I would be not getting comfortable, but looking for new employment options soon. Especially since EA is a big corporation and can take TSR to the cleaners. Then the subsscibers may be able to get a class action suit, for being charged illegally, etc.

This is all very interesting and enlightening. Have you thought of sending this material to EA's legal department to prove that there is a precedent and that they would win? I mean telling me and the others on here is fine and enlightening, but shouldn't someone be telling the legal dept at EA games about it? Wouldn't that do more to have TSR shut down? I assume this court and that precedent was set in the same state that EA operates in and if not that despite whatever state it was set in, that it would apply Federally across all of the US states? It seems to me that perhaps you are a lawyer right? Have you solicited EA games to offer legal counsel and assistance to them if you are? If not, why not? ;) Seems to me they'd need someone like you on their legal staff pronto.

I'm a criminologist (will be a fully fledged Dr. of Philosophy in 1.5 years) - so searching for case law is fairly easy for me - and would be even easier for those actual lawyers at EA.  But there is little or no point to send it to EA - they aren't interested.  Whether paysite customer, or freesite supporter, we all still buy the games.  

They aren't going to do anything, and if they do do something, I will be shocked.  They couldn't give two shits about their customers - so long as TSR is encouraging people to buy stuff, they will continue to ignore it.  But that's the reason why they don't stop filesharing either.  It helps them sell more stuff.  

I've worked for and with lawyers (and barristers - I don't know if you have something comparable in the US - but they are like the cream of the crop) and they don't go and solicit business.  They do what they are employed to do.  

Where this stuff does make a difference is in the people who wonder if filesharing is legal.  Well, now they have Nouk's letter, and this caselaw to show that, yes, it is illegal, and while EA won't do anything about the problem, they can take the booty guilt free.  No problems.  Ordinary simmers who pay for these things should know that in fact, the only person in a compromising situation is TSR.

It also shuts up people like nohead, who ignore the caselaw and talk about nebulous "illegalities" - when in fact there are none.  That case would actually apply all over the US - it is in the ninth circuit federal appeals court.

Oh, and I wouldn't be too sure that they don't read this phorum - EA - we've had one of their employees here, who was very nice, and if they don't keep their finger on the pulse, well, I would be very very surprised.

No it wasn't me who brought it up, Lorelei started and got nods from deathtotsr and a confirmation from Not-Apsalar that TSR was indeed breaking  Swedish law and to me it looked like they meant the EULA. Maybe i got that wrong.

I'm still a little curious, who do you think would have a case against the paysites?
If EA was interested in taking that course then they might have some grounds, but it doesn't look like they are particularity interested in that.

Maybe if enough pressure is applied to them by the consumers of their products they will take this course. Hopefully they'll notice that pressure mounting soon and start to take action.

I'm sorry. I thought you had brought it up. But, please don't be patronizing. You know what I am talking about. You don't need a list of reason's outside of EA. Your much more intelligent than that.

You know EA owns all rights to the game, they have a good case against TSR. Lets start with all the homemaker, bodyshop, lots and sims, that members of TSR can only DL if they have a subscription. TSR ripped us off (ex customer) for stuff, that was meant to be freely shared user to user. As an ex subscriber to TSR, I feel our money was swindled from us. SO that is lawsuit number two. Really simple!

Well, for starters, anyone whose work was actually stolen and used in CC on paysites, from various corporations to artists, photographers, clothing designs and makers, etc.  (I thought that was the big point of conversation when the whole point was brought up in the first place, so I don't understand why YOU don't get this?)

Forget EA for a moment, many of these sites aren't even creating their own textures, or they're using corporate trademarks like logos and characters.  These things are most definitely not their property to sell, even if they were in the clear to sell Sims 2 CC.

I would also think that if it was perfectly legal to fileshare and not legal to sell the content, enterprising downloaders who paid a site such as TSR could get together a class-action.

Not sure if EA updated their EULA or what but I just found a page on their site with their license agreement which I will post here. It says VERY CLEARLY it is okay to freely share custom content made for their games, but it is illegal to use it for commercial means (sell it or make users pay for subscriptions to get it). Here's the URL for it:

http://support.ea.com/cgi-bin/ea.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=8174&p_created=1098725015

Hi again Calalily,

I just tried going to that link for that precedent again (because I read it last night when you posted it), to bookmark it but when I clicked on it today it is telling me I have to sign in or register. So I can't read it now and wonder if anyone else on here can?

No, that's not new - that's been around since Sims 2 base game, and I know for a fact that it was with Pets and Homecrafter.  It's also here on the front page.

ETA: You have to register to read it more than once a day - but the good thing is registration is free.

Ooh, who was that? I seem to have missed it.

US trademark and copyright holders have been trying to make people think that ANY use of a copyrighted image or trademark is a violation. In fact it is not. We still have something called "Fair Use." It means that you can, for example, use the NHL logo on a sign to advertise a hockey game at your pub.

I have been wondering if the use of trademarked designs and logos in Sims content would be considered fair use if the content is free. If it's pay content, I'm quite certain it's a violation. But for free, it may be fair use.

Any ideas on this?

Well, copyright law is quite screwy at the moment, but I like to believe (and I honestly hope) that free stuff, freely shared, non-profit, is considered free use.

However, trademarks are a little different than materials under copyright.  If you don't protect your trademarks, which includes stopping unauthorized use, you lose the rights to the trademark.  There's precedent for that.  It's one reason why it pisses Adobe off when people use photoshop as a verb--they can lose the trademark "Photoshop" if the name becomes common usage.  Which...they're a little late on, so it might end up as too bad, so sad.  They used to have a little bit on their website about how we so shouldn't use the term photoshop in ways Adobe doesn't approve.

It's alright - it happened before you joined.  :D   I can't seem to remember the username - I'll try to find it now.  It was around November last year and they only made a couple of posts.  So, they know of us if their employees do.  



Agreed - and none too clear.  But the reality is that if you're not making money from the sale of the content, they may leave you alone - and call it advertising.  They *could* sue you - or rather send you a cease and desist notice - but that would make them look like dicks.  As you have probably read, some of them like Disney don't mind looking like dicks - but others, not so much.  Of course, there are sections of big corporations that don't care, and will act unilaterally - like the people from Universal suing Steve Irwin for many long years for him putting a croc in the Universal logo on his Universal movie - trademark lawyers eh?

But unless you have something that doesn't reflect well on the brand - they usually leave you alone.  The simple thing is that if they tell you to take it off, don't be a World Sims dick - just take it off.

This happens fairly often in the UK and USA. In the UK, all pens are biros, and vacuuming is hoovering. In the US, all dark carbonated sugary beverages are cokes, you xerox things, and any disposable tissue is a kleenex. Xerox is fighting back with adverts, saying people need to call it photocopying. I think Kleenex is fighting back as well. But in many cases, it is a losing battle. Language does what it will.

Thank you Jron,

For expressing your support and voicing what happened to you there. Much appreciated. And I know Raveena is one piece of work - she accused a few friends of mine who made Sims 1 stuff of stealing her work (when in actuality it was her who stole theirs).  I am pretty sure she was behind most of the sabotages going on at TSR at the time too - because her ratings were always mediocre to say the most, and she'd get scared of those who were doing what she did, only better than she could, and would sabotage their ratings. But again as you say it's who kisses Thomas' *ss over there that gets favoured and has nothing to do with their quality of work or lack thereof. If you're one of Thomas' sicophants there, then you've got it made and woe to all of your enemies or those you don't like because he'll take care of those for you real quick (as the case of Sherrie attests to).

Anyone wishing to report TSR for their crimes - copyright infringements, non-repayment of funds, income tax/tax etc, etc.... May do so at either of these two places, Swedish Prosecution Authority on registrator.int-stockholm@aklagare.se and the Swedish police authorities on polismyndigheten.stockholm@polisen.se.

TSR has a non-existent quality control. I submitted some crap hairs and they approved. That was before I found PMDB, of course.