PMBD

Came across this and didn't see this posted in here on Numenor's take on all of this at his site. So anyone interested in reading it here is the link.

PAY SITES, FREE SITES, PIRATES AND HONEST SIMMERS
The Good and the Bad of our simming world

http://www.numenor-moddings.com/

You can also vote and from the look of the voting doesn't look like many pirates have been voting.

 8)

Dun Dun DUNNNNNNNN. Search! http://phorum.mustnotbenamed.com/viewtopic.php?t=1042&start=75

Although to be fair, if you didn't do a lengthy search, you wouldn't know we'd been discussing the issue. I couldn't have told you which thread it was on, and I posted on it.

By the way, I want to go on record as saying Gwendolyne, Surelyfunke, and I  - with Pescado's blessing - were the ones who set the no tolerance policy back in March. I would also like to go on record as saying that I am the person who uploaded the item in question, after verifying that it was indeed only available after money changed hands.  And finally, I would like to go on record as saying that if any of us - Pescado included - took the item out of the booty before it was released as a free item, I'd raise holy hell.

Sorry about that, but I did search and there is so much in here to read that I didn't see this. I know you hate repeating but this is the first I have seen of it. Wondering why more pirates haven't voted

So far on the subject of "Pirates: wise saviours or blind killer?" the Pirates are losing big time.

Still an interesting read even though not always agreeing and I like his take on TSR  8)

Just wanted to add that I agree with the no tolerance policy. I think you have to make a strong statement on this for people to understand that any pay items is wrong for the community. Just educating people on the evils of pay sites without the booty would never work IMO.

Most pirates didn't think it worth their time because Numenor was forcing them to choose. Their views weren't there so they decided screw that poll.

:D I admit it would be hard to find. I pointed you in the right direction even if I didn't do it in the right way. : :wink:


*Edited for typos*

Thanks RedLove for letting me know about it. I usually do most of my reading in here not logged on and have missed much in the other Arr threads. Will be taking the time to read in there now.

 :)

I'm confused? I thought Numenor's thingy, don't even know what it is, is in the booty because someone was posting it on a paysite. Or does he have a donation item? I mean if it's because a paysite was hosting it, does it really need to be in the booty? It seems to really be upseting him, so much so that he's making polls that make no sense. He's given so much to the community. There wouldn't be any booty to snag without his CEP for the most part. Would there? I was going to vote in his poll, but I'm not. He set it up to be a loose/loose poll. My views are not represented in his poll, not even slightly.

Plus, we know because we have two responses from the US copyright office saying the exact same thing. Written in laymans terms, even a 7 year old can understand. There is no way, no how. Anyone making CC would be given any copyright protection, or a copyright on their work. Unless...they have a signed contract from EA giving them permission to do so. I seriously doubt EA is going to turn over copyright to any of us, or give us a right to own copyright with them. Even if they wake up tomorrow and say we welcome paysites with open arms, that's really pushing it.

Of course we're losing - the options are pretty slanted - as I said in the other thread:

Option 1: Pirates are great and the rest of you can suck it up bitches. Gimme MOAR content you sluts.

OR

Option 2: Pirates hurt sweet Numenor, despite the stuff he's given us, and the help he provides for free and the sun tanning bed he gave us all. He is a sweet and lovely man, and pirates make him leave the community.

Rather than trying to choose this, I didn't vote. Let all the paysite supporters vote, rig the polls, and he'll get the message he wanted.

And HawkGirl - he has a donation item.

Well, I for one do not wish to see him leave, but if he does he had best do it on his own bus ticket, not mine. Thing is, other sites have one bloody donation file and we go for them.
Yes, he does a lot for the people who play the game, and I hate to see that donation file on his site. Hell, if I could give him money right bloody now just to take that fucker off the site, I would! I don't have that file, nor do I want it.
I just wish I had the ability to help each free creator out there who needs it to keep their site up and going. It's bullshit that we get attacked as the bad guys and treated like we have leprosy or something equally loathsome.
Thanks, guys, you're really making my life a hell of a lot fucking easier, and why you're at it, why don't you just hit me upside the goddamn head with a sledge hammer while you're at it, then maybe I can forget, ok?
I know that he is usually a kind and considerate person. I know that he has endless patience to help those that need it. I know that he has talents that God for some reason chose to deny my having.
I know all of this and I respect him immensely but Goddamn it, a payfile is a payfile and that is the cause that brought us all together! To free the fucking community from having to pay for custom content! To honor the EULA! To take down the bastards who sell shit and then throw it in our faces that we can't do a fucking thing about their shit fucking our games over and they're keeping our money no matter what they do.
So, gee, Mr. and Mrs. Average Sim Player, we play pirates so you can avoid the wallet vampires and we wind up being called trash. Thank you so very fucking much.
I know that some of you may be hurt and disagree with my words or how I expressed myself and for that, I do apoligize. But I will not apologize for wanting to free the community as a whole and when your goal is something like that, you have to stick to it.
Yes, I hate the fact that we host that motherfucking tanning bed, and I hate that he is hurt by the idea, but doesn't he think that we are hurt by him making a payfile? When he knows that payfiles are wrong? Here, you give me money and I will give you this file. That is what it seems like.
Would it not be better to just wait? Like, oh, this person donated to help me keep going, so I am going to send them this neat little gift because I appreciate them taking the time and caring enough to help me stay afloat, it was very thoughtful. Which one sounds like it comes from the heart?
I wish that people other than members here would actually read what I have for a sig and figure out just where in the hell we fucking are in this community! Here, let me type it out in bold, ok?

Oh, better far to live and die
Under the brave black flag I fly,
Than play a sanctimonious part,
With a pirate head and a pirate heart.

I believe these words. I'd rather be thought of as a thieving polecat than to be proven as one. I think that goes for most of us. So, excuse me while I polish my gold hoop, pull up my thigh boots and make sure my sword is sharp, I have plunderin to be doin against paysites, savvy?

While there are certain points I do agree with in his rambling essay, I was left with a feeling of disgust more than anything. The polls were so hopelessly skewed that there was no way of expressing any sort of opinion other than stark black or white.

I think it is a pity that free creators can't really send out a gift in return for a genuine donation anymore. I'm not talking about a sale, just a little something to say thank you for shelling out some cash, even if it is a file share friendly item. Technically, money has exchanged hands and it's not really kosher. However, I can't blame pirates for that, just the people who have bastardized the words 'donation' and 'gift' to such a horrid degree.

I also agree that sites like TSR and Peggy are far better targets than sites that have a few reasonably priced pay items. For example, I myself used to regularly buy files from Sussi, not because I couldn't get them elsewhere, but because I wanted to support her. However, that does not mean that those sites are not still pay sites, and we'd much rather see them be entirely free.

'Destroy' is the most misconstrued term in the anti-pirate rhetoric I've been reading, because most of the people here do not in fact wish to outright destroy most sites , just destroy the pay section. As much as that is accomplished through use of the booty, we also try to offer alternatives. Whats wrong with that?

And lastly, how many free creators have honestly packed their bags over what we stand for? Many of the people who are pirates are also free creators, and time and time again I've seen people here try to uphold reasonable creator's rights. Unfortunately, the fight for creator's rights has caused Numenor to forget that at the other end, there are also consumer's rights. Not to go off on a tangent, but even if it is a creator's right to sell his or her work, then isn't it also the consumer's right to have a guarantee of quality? I don't think I'd have such a distaste for paysites if most of the objects purchased from them weren't shoddy, hastily slapped together, and very flawed, with no recompense for the consumer when they realize they've been conned.

So I will close out this somewhat incoherent discourse by saying that I was much more sympathetic to Numenor's distress before I read his rant. If the value of the object in question is inherently tied to it's rareness, then it doesn't say much for the quality of the item in the first place. Since I know Numenor's work, I'd say that sounds like rubbish to me. Also, are the people to whom the item was given the type of people who are only happy with their toys if no one else has them? That's rather petty too. Maybe I have a kindergarten mentality, but I'd much rather share the finer things than hoard them all for myself.

And finally, a suggestion for getting the item removed from the booty, should Numenor actually read any of this crap; reserve the item as a special file, but leave out the 'this is what you get when you donate' bit. Instead, if people donate, then send it to them as a surprise thank you. It accomplishes the same thing, but without the carrot which makes it technically a pay file.

Guys

I have a suggestion.. what is a donation item essentially for? He must need a certain amount of money to keep his site going.. So can someone suggest to him that he runs a donation drive, and if he reaches the amount he normally gets in people buying the tanning bed, he changes that item to a free item. I for one think that a ton of people would happily and voluntarily donate to that man, just because all he's done for us..

Look at lil' ol me..being a peacemaker again.

Angha..

edit.. and I had to finish with this one..

(http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/2712/phpthumbphpfu6.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)

I do enjoy reading your responses because every time someone tries to defend their opinion on pay sites/donation you come back and make sense where they don't.

What I don't get from Numenor is that he makes it sound like pay sites are bad but donation sites are not. I just see a pay file as a pay file no matter how they try to sell it, like Paden said also. The thing is Numenor has done a lot for this community and has shared so much with all of us. If he came out and said the only way that he can stay online is with a donation drive I am sure people would help. He doesn't even need just one pay file. The idea he will send you the file even if you donate just a penny is lame than you might as well have it for free.

Sorry about the poll, maybe I should of drank a little more rum before reading it.  :oops:

Off to go read the thread this was in originally, which I should have done before posting.  8)

His poll presents other problems, too, and I'm not even sure if Numenor's aware of it.

There is an extremely easy way to vote multiple times on his poll. I found it by accident when I had to do something on my computer totally unrelated to the Sims. I do not consider myself a computer whiz. I didn't have to hack into anything whatsoever ... didn't have to do anything even vaguely illegal. I was surprised when I saw that the options for me to vote were available, so I was curious and tried again, expecting to get the message, "You already voted on this poll". That's what one usually gets when one tries to vote more than once. But the vote seems to have registered!

I tried on another question ... perhaps this was just a glitch with the one question? Nope. It wasn't.

I did the same actions I did previously to see if the poll would clear. It did.

I don't believe that it would be a good idea to say exactly what I did. I'm not sure if encouraging people to "vote early and often" is wise. And I'm not multi-voting again. I didn't like doing it in the first place. But I do admit to being shocked.

So not only are there loaded questions in the poll, but the results may be loaded as well. Worst yet, if I, who might be considered a pirate, found it, a paysite supporter could find it just as easily and multi-vote to his heart's content, thus driving certain results up.

Worst yet, if some malevolent prat totally unrelated to this site decides to pull an under-12 move and REALLY wreak havoc with the current results, who is going to be blamed for it? Hint: Not the under-12 prat.

I don't think that would work.  I thought of that too, and I think what would happen is someone would donate it to the booty anyway after saying "look what I got for sending Numenor money! He has a hidden payfile!"  Then there would be a completely different ruckus.  



This to me is why I don't consider it necessarily a "payfile".   You can send whatever amount you want to send.  It is not a set amount, he is not selling it for 2.95, in fact he says if you are there to buy the item, don't give him money.  I look at it like a thank you card for a present.  You give him a donation (present), he gives you a thank you card (the file).  Other sites with "donations" have a set donation amount.  Or at least a minimum.  That to me is still pay no matter what they want to call it.  Numenor knows full well that if you donate anything less than a dollar, Paypal gets the money and he gets nothing.  However, he still links you to the file.  That is one reason why I consider it an exception.  It has nothing (or at least very little) to do with it being the great and powerful Numenor.  Although he is great.  

I know my view is not the popular one around here on this issue and other than armywife, no one will agree with me.  That is OK.  I generally agree with 95% of everything else, this is just one time where I don't.  

I don't drink rum or eat cookies.  You can kick my ass for that.

I wasn't going to offer rum OR cookies - because you're not reading.



Pescado *specifically* said that if he stopped offering it as a on the page donation incentive, and just sent it to people it would cease to qualify for the booty - it's one of the options available, and I think everyone here on either side of the argument would certainly hold it against Pescado if he reneged on that deal.

Nobody here is interested in hidden payfiles, or hidden files, or hidden anything (barring conspiracies). We're not the sharing police - or the taxation office - we just want glaring "content for payment" stuff not done.



So you wouldn't think someone was a bit mercenary if they showed you a picture of a shiny thank you card with a toy in it and said thank me and you get this?  I would look at them like they were a complete and utter weirdo.

I posted my thoughts on the thread Redlove posted but I'll make it short and sweet here.  

Num-love ya hun but the file needs to stay till you make it free.
Council- stick to the zero tolerance, it won't be popular but it'll get the job done faster.
Delphy- get back to your site and make the downloads faster.

Hun, that's the thing.
Emotionally, using hearts not heads, most of probably do agree with you to an extent.
Rationally, removing the item from the booty, IMO would weaken the idea behind this whole site.
It should matter who, what, when, where or why.
A pay file is a pay file and here, we are against them.
If I were to really get into this whole thing with my heart, I would be demanding ATS and Holy Simoly's stuff out of the Booty.
ATS, you donate once and get lifetime access to everything she's ever or will ever mae as a donation gift.
Holy Simoly has the best quaailty stuff out there, IMO, and HUGE donation packs for pretty cheap.
BUT, using my head, this is what I think:
If this were my site, I would not remove ANYTHING until it has gone free or file-share friendly.
Because, if I did remove things for any reason...be it He's done so much or ATS has so much stuff, it would show favoritism and be extremely unfair.
That would give everyone fuel for the fire. Then it would be right when they say shit about greedy.
Because by making a choice to only include certain people, and leave some out for personal reasons, there would be no clear message to send.
Does: Paysites *i don't like* Must be destroyed, make sense?
No, that's silly.
If you want to go after one, you have to go after them all or there's simply no reason to do anything.

You are right.  I didn't see that as I have not read every post on the other thread.  I was responding to the posts in this thread.  Thanks for letting me know about it.

Just so others will know the reference as well:






Not mercenary, no.  Weird, of course.  I don't see it as the same thing.  I never said it wasn't a bit odd, I just said that I don't see it necessarily as a payfile.  We are just going to have to agree to disagree.

Here's the thing:
I do sincerely doubt anyone donates to Numenor just to get the tanning bed.  (I honestly don't know why the hell anyone would WANT a tanning bed for Sims 2.)

However, all goodwill in regards to donation gifts was ursurped a long, long time ago by the jack-offs running the paysites.  Since there is no good place in the middle to draw a line, the booty's hands are tied here--either put up everything and stand up for principles, or pick and choose, and look like huge ass hypocrites.

So if Numenor's gift is seen as a pay-only item (and it most certainly IS a pay-only item, in reality), it's not OUR fault for putting it up in the booty, it's the jack-off paysites' fault for making any sort of item received after making a donation become a purchase.

Numenor's had my utmost respect, and I never thought any less of him for having one item on his site.  And I think most people probably don't feel badly about him for it, and would probably donate to him if they really wanted that damn bed.  Though I still doubt anyone would donate FOR the item (except maybe whoever put it up here :P), all his donations were probably donated just to donate.

His esteem is dropping rapidly in my eyes with that skewed-ass poll.  It's why I posted BETTER questions in the S2C thread about the topic.  There are and should be shades of gray in public opinion, and there are lots of viewpoints I think are valid without having a moral quandry, but I still think putting the item up here was the right thing for HERE to be doing.  It makes the most sense.

My esteem for him hasn't dropped a bit. But his putting up that poll, and keeping that poll up has presented a load of complications:

- If you vote against what he obviously wants you to vote, will he be angry and stop creating? Does the ordinary voter want to be known as one of the bad people (pirates) who made him stop creating? Of course not! So the OV votes the way he wants them to.

- That poll can be very easily multi-voted. Can anyone even TRUST the answers? If he presents the answers as "proof" of support, they could very easily be disputed.

- If after posting the poll, Numenor makes the bed free, it may look like he caved in to us. This would make him look bad, and hey, I understand that someone doesn't want to look bad. Who does?

- If WE take the bed off the booty now, it will look like we caved in to him. Not a problem in and of itself, but that can set a really bad precedent, for reasons explained here.

- What was the purpose of this poll exactly? To make us take the bed off the Booty? Seeing how Pescado has acted in the past, did he think that would work? Honestly. Even the most prolific posters and fervent supporters don't have that effect with him.

To verify his reasoning for making the bed a pay item?

And even with the loaded and tense questions, a large number of people (over a third in some cases) might not have answered the way he wanted them to. What to do with THAT result?

One thing I've learned the hard way with emotionally-based polls ... be prepared to deal with the results. They may not turn out the way you hoped.

My husband works with people from many cultures, and in several  cultures, it is very important when trying to get a desired result to allow the other side every opportunity to save face first. To compromise without backing down. He has seen that failure to do so can yield disastrous results. This poll has made this very difficult, if not impossible.

Yes, there is.  I have manipulated polls
in a newspaper many years ago, (i am bad), that was a political fight with some of my countrymen. It was very childish of me, but i thought it was funny to figure out that it was easy to manipulate. But i prefer to stay away from Nums poll.  The questions do not appeal to me, but it's his site, so he's of course free to do whatever he want.

And herein you see why attempts to appeal to me on the matter are futile. As the test results on MATY show, I have only a cold, black lump of rocklike substance that oozes toxic black ichor for a heart. When reason has dictated something to be correct, no amount of emotion, not even kittens, will move me. A true INTJ is unswayed by emotional appeal. We likewise are incapable of truly comprehending the foibles in others which even make such an attempt worth considering. Resistance is futile.

(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y291/annhild/civilizacoes28ie.jpg)

I wonder if Pescado is among one of them?

:shock:
I've been quoted by the great Pescado...

Wow.

Something I said made sense??? :lol:

Personally, being quoted by Pescado would creep me out, but that's me...  :roll:

Do you think I should hide for a while, now?
 :lol:
*eyes dart to and fro*
Is he gonna yell at me? No heart, he could make me cwy. :cry:
Jeez, I should avoid forums until I've had coffee...lol

You should run, I tell you, RUN!  :lol:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/1003/mmekare79/th37221silent_bob.gif)

Sh. I'll hide behind Silent Bob. He won't tell until the very end of the thread, and by the time everyone figures out what he's talking about, I'll have had plenty of time to slink away.
Sh. Ry is hiding.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/1003/mmekare79/Jaynod.gif)

As NeptuneSuzy saw that poll (she viewed the thread for a very long time on s2c - I was waiting for her to say something about greedy pirates and respect), you just know that they have mobilised the troops to vote in their favour.

And personally, I'm going to reserve judgement on anything Numenor does until he does it.  :D

...I'm just too scientific at heart.  Manipulating data is wrong, even if it's a poll about content for pixel dollies.

Are you sure you are quoted by human beeing and not a robot without
a heart, or an animated leaderhead? I know i challenge the destiny here
by typing this, but that's me.

mm. by the way, do not doubt yourself, you do not need the big boss
confirmation to believe you have made sense in what your typing.

I just wonder if Pescado has a hack who kill babies?

I agree. If the questions are skewered, there is no point in even starting the poll. (Unless you are after specific results, but that is not scientific, it is just manipulating the results and renders the poll worthless.)



OT:

OMG! So you're a Mastermind too!
 :lol: I thought you reminded me of a friend of mine who is also a Mastermind.

He's a grumpy old* man too, and I can envision him living in a bunker.

*if you consider 33 old. I don't, but he acts like he is at least 50.

After reading Numenor's long-winded essay and trying to make some sort of sense out of it I have this to say....he just wants someone to stroke his ego. I'm tired of creators (and sometimes the fans themselves) in this "community" thinking they're owed something by either EA/Maxis or the fans.

If Numenor bothered to go beyond PMBD he'd realize alot of people who are "non-pirates" still would consider him, VitaSims, and Holy Simoly paysites because of their donation files. And as for those polls...it's so black and white it's disgusting. Not everything is so clean cut. Sheesh.

Well then he has to stay in the booty. I understand Hec's thinking on that. Guess I'll go donate for his donation item and tell him to keep the item.

We do owe Numenor something, we wouldn't have half the things we do in the game if it wasn't for him. I for one wouldn't have his Base Game starter, and that totally changed things for the builders.

I must admit, every time I hear this from one of you guys I get a cold feeling at the pit of my stomach. Because I've been on the receiving end of this sort of attitude to a minor degree, and it made me want to throw something, very hard. Because it's like fans take for granted that creators will always be there, and we won't.

The free creators all have jobs and lives, and we don't get anything out of this other than the odd "thank you" so if the net result of our efforts is that  people start yelling that we haven't done "more", demanding we spend weeks of our time fulfilling every one of their absurd requests and having what amounts to a tantrum because we haven't gone down a path they want, it starts to make us wonder why we even bother.

I helped a whole lot of people learn a whole lot of stuff in the last two years, and the net result of the reactions that come out of that type of  attitude was that I decided I was going to stop helping anyone but my friends. Because quite frankly if all I get for trying to help the community is abuse and too much of my free time taken up, it makes me want to tell the community to get stuffed.

Angha

edit: I'm adding to this now I've calmed down slightly.. I'm not talking about that obsequious, sickening respect that people had for skinners etc two or three years ago, I'm just talking about decent, honest, straightforward respect for a fellow human and the odd thank you when they've done something decent.

I can understand and empathise with how you feel on the matter, but now you know how we as a group feel. We've been doing this for some time, and we're still spit on and reviled. We get slapped at and kicked at all the fuggin time!
We're trying to keep people from spending money on worthless shit that they will hate or be aggravated by and we're bad because we advocate file sharing.
You gave your time and expertise in helping other people learn. You got slapped down in return for it. That hurts. And it hurts when you help to get items for the booty or speak out against the paysites and people treat you like you're a monster straight from hell.
Seems like no one can win cept the paysites cause they pay their people to come up with shit to sell to make more money. A hobby has become a business and we're wrong to protest them ripping off others? I'm not saying that is what Numenor has done, God knows he's done very much for each and every gamer, but I've learned something from one of my surviving brothers.
He (my brother) only got into game modding because he wanted to see how the damn thing had been put together and made to work. He's got one of those minds that takes things apart and then puts them back together in different ways to see what will happen. Reverse engineering, kids. Many non-gamers do it because it presents a challenge and they have fun with it.
I appreciate what they come up with it, and give thanks that they do these things. But why should I sit next to their ego like I would sit next to my cat and stroke it constantly when I've other things to do?
I'm thankful. I'm grateful. I've said all of this before. I try to treat people the way that I would like to be treated but keep getting kicked in the face. There are times when I kick back, like trolls and Fuck nuts and all of that.
But I don't lash out at our creators, unless they are greedy bitches/assholes. When they demand money for their talents/creators, that is when I look for stuff made by other people and draw the line. And then I try to do something about it.

I do agree that Numenor has done alot for this community. *However* that doesn't mean he gets to do what he wants, and we should just tow the line.  That's how all this business started in the first place with payfiles - the downloader had to shut his mouth - never criticise - never ask what the hell the donation is for - never question the use of the word "donation".  

The key difference here is that Numenor gets lots of thanks - almost every poster here has said that they value him, with the exception of the few.  But he's not asking for thanks, he's asking money for a payfile.

Kate at Parsimonious doesn't do that, Quaxi doesn't do that, Pescado doesn't do that, Two Jeffs doesn't do that, Kathy and Eric at Insim don't do that, Delphy doesn't do that - these are all big names.  Sure they ask for a thanks, or feedback or even a lack of abuse - but not money in exchange for content.

Not to mention that Numenor asks a great dichotomy of the downloader if he gives his file to those who do whatever it is to get that file (because he says he has given it out for free, but says it won't be just given to those who ask for it).  We're asked by 99% of creators *not to email requests* - but in this case, some secret way exists in which to make a request for the file for free.  I mean either way, the community is damned if they do, and damned if they don't.

Well, I am not a Sims creator, so I can't say how Sims creators feel.

But I DO know how it feels to work really hard on something for a community. To put hours of time and work into making something nice. To be really proud of my efforts and figuring that surely, people will like what I did ... and did out of real affection for them.

Then within an hour when I wasn't even in front of a computer, I got run over like a pancake, had my work treated like toilet paper and thrown away, and told that I was a schmuck. An uppity schmuck.

Yes. I know how that feels. And I did the emotional poll and long explanation thing, too. And it didn't make things better. It made things much, much worse. That's why I wrote that bit about emotional polls. Been there, done that.

I've also been in Hecubus' and Gwen's shoes. I openly presented a situation with a member to the community, what we were to do about it was debated, and we reached a consensus as to what should be done.  We agreed that it should be done out of fairness to a community, and that there were to be no exceptions. Everyone seemed OK with the decision, and the one or two who voiced concern finally agreed it was for the best.

Then ... you guessed it. It turned out the member did as she pleased and complained about our decision to the community ... and about me. I mentioned the decision we reached weeks earlier. And suddenly ... yup ... when I wasn't in front of the computer, I had my efforts treated like toilet paper and thrown away, and I was told that I was a schmuck. An unyielding schmuck at that.

Been there, done that.

So I am not totally unsympathetic to either side. Or rather, unempathetic. But I do agree with Hecubus and Gwen in the end. I wished it didn't have to come to this. I'm not totally comfortable with the decision, and still wish that somehow, all sides can come to a satifsfactory compromise. But it ain't lookin' good right now.

And I have the feeling that many others here have been in a similar boat. And who knows ... maybe they've felt like pancakes too, in the past. (Maybe I should use that pancake bunny macro.)

I will give Pescado one bit of credit ... he has not pretended to wash his hands of everything. He has, in the end, taken responsibility for the final decision. I can tell you that many board owners do not, and will let their mods hang.

Now I don't want to be too nice to Pescado. We have rules against that sort of thing. :)

Oh. My. Goodness. He's only five zero years older than me. That's scary.

He's only old because of his grumpy attitude.  :lol:

I'm 32 and I don't consider myself old.

I'm 28...closing in on 29...and I really don't consider anyone old anymore. I also don't really consider myself an adult.

Angha Tyl, my point was that I'm tired of how so many people will either threaten to run with their goodies back home or either put down a creator because they aren't being catered to. I believe Numenor does deserve respect but he doesn't deserve any ass kissing from me.

The problem as I see it, and why I agree with what is being said as to why it has to stay in there is this...if we say well Numenor has done so much for the community, it's not fair to include his things. It makes us all hypocrites. Either we are for free CC, or we are not. There is no gray area there. We cannot pick and choose who goes in and who stays out, just because we like them. I like Holy Simoly, heck I even like Rose and when you donate for all she sends you like 200 items. So it comes to about 25 cents a piece. I know many hate her here, but she has never done anything to me. She has always gone out of her way to be friendly and helpful with me. They both are in there. Many sites with only one donation item are in there. I'm sure there are many good people that have done a lot for the community in the booty. I don't hate paysite owners, I think many of them are friendly people, that have given a lot to the community. Other than Thomas and Steve. I don't see how they have contributed anything to the community, anyplace other than their own pockets. I hate what they represent, the division in the community. The bans, the no refunds on broken merchandise. 2.50/5.00 may not be much to some of us, but it may be a kids whole allowance and everything to them. All the sites in the Booty I believe have free content, much more free than they sell, but they are in there, and he should be as well. I don't like it anymore than you do, but I see Hec's point that we cannot choose and it should not be removed.

You mentioned Rose...Rose may not have done anything to you, but she did give out Paypal information on customers.

.

It comes down to this simple thing. We greatly appreciate and adore Numenor for what he has done for this community. But if a tons of sincere thanks and the worship of lots and lots of people isn't enough, and if we end up being perceived as assholes for honestly standing up for what we believe is right, then, friends, as one of my favorite fictional characters use to say: so be it!
(you're welcome to guess what fictional character that is :wink:  )

I heard about this after I came here. I believe the person that accused her of it. I have no reason not to believe them, nor do I believe they would have any reason to lie about it. I had already donated for all her things before I ever heard about this, and had been corresponding with her for a long time. Like I said she's never done anything to me and has always gone out of her way to be helpful. It was Rose that was the first one to give me permission to use her mesh, and that helped me do my first recolor. That explained editing to me. I do think she owes the person she did that too an apology, a sincere one. If I had heard about it first I wouldn't have donated to her, or had anything to do with her, but I didn't. It's kinda hard to hate someone that goes out of their way to help you when so many basically say go away. I had written to over 20 people asking for permission to try to do a recolor on their mesh. I even said I will send you the results first to see if you approve of it or not. She was the only one that answered me back and volunteered to help, when I told her I really had no idea what I was doing, but wanted to try. That was months before I ever donated a dime to her. There is a world of difference going from 2d art to 3d art.

Have you been to our Thank-thread by the way? To tell that you're greatful that Pescado has made this site possible and put up a server
to people who can't afford or don't want to support paysites? I respect
Pescado for that, even if i tried with some silly jokes.

I hope you do not take this for granted, there are a lot of work behind
fighting paysites too. When it comes to Numenor, yes, i think i owe him
respect, he is a great modder at MTS2 wich is a FREE community. Free
downloads - it takes a second to push on the thanks button after downloading something. Numenor has his personal reason to complain when his file ends up in the booty, he felt like he was compared to other paysites which he do not support. He is NOT arrogant at all, but very kind and helpful. I can understand why he felt hurt, absolutely!

But, yes, there is a but. He should know how pirates work, they take all the payfiles and put it in the booty. Gwen told me Numenor haven't even tried to speak to the pirates, discussed it or asked if his file could be left alone.

I wish he had, people here are not entirely unreasonable, and with a dialog, maybe the file wouldn't end up in the booty. So on the other hand, i can understand why the pirates was hurt too, cause of that poll.
This issue sucks to me. And i do not use my heart, but my brain. Now Delphy has locked the debate about paysites on S2C. It's impossible to
speak ones opinion, cause we, the pirates took one of Delphys most
respected and talented creators file and shared it.

And well, now his tanningbed has got a lot of PR, commercial too, so i am sure people are donating him now, and downloading it.

All the free creators earn thanks and feedback, i am an artist myself, and God, how happy i was when i sold some paintings, and won
a photocontest. Some stole a photo from me, i was mad as hell. Another guy stole a poem, claimed he had written it. I was schocked. I have more stories about that, but will not continue. These examples must not be misunderstood, cause it has nothing to do with
paysites, i am among those who are nearly fanatic against paysites.
I wrote this just to tell how hurtful it feels when free creators have to read they do not earn anything, or like their owed something?? They make the game more fun, and should hear that. Numenor has some hacks and funny stuff i am totally in love with. I got them for free at MTS2, so can you. His scriptorium makes it easier for creators to make beutiful fireplaces, stairs, lights, walls, floors. The players and builders should preciate that, and i have the impression most people do. This goes for all other free creators too.

I would donate 5 euro to him, for his tanningbed, not just to say thank you for making this - but to give him a little optional gift for making so much stuff available for free at MTS2. He made it a pay-item, but he did not set any prize, everything from 1 cent was okay. Pirates have their rules, a payitem is a payitem, and ends up in the booty. And as a pirate myself, i admit that he did a mistake - after typing he is against TSR and Peggysims and other paysites himself. He could have used another system for downloading the tanningbed, which is not a crappy item, he do not make crap. He could have used the system Silver suggested earlier in the other thread. But honestly, that is not up to noone here
to decide, it's only a suggestion.

I do consider all sites who make payfiles as paysites, and too many of them make bad stuff, other make better stuff. Yes, it Is wrong to claim
payment for a file, from a pirates opinion. But somehow, i wonder,
was it really worth it, making Numenors file available in the booty?
the results are: Delphy has locked the threads - most people do preciate
MTS2 and Numenor, and they can turn even more against us cause of this. I am not sure this is the right way to kill paysites.

Pescado wrote something about a camels nose into the tent, and warned about getting the entire camel in there. Maybe he's right, maybe Numenor would sell more items after a while. But this is pure guessing.
Preemptive strikes is not what i consider as necessary, or the absolutely right thing to do, not since Numenor is one of the most important representants for the free site like MTS2. he has a strong position there, and i do not want to loose him. That goes for all the other creators too, who are talented and give players fun for free.

Wow - I've been away on vacation and quitting smoking and what do I see as I come back here? Numenor going slightly drama queenish. I'm disappointed in his behaviour, and I'm all the more disappointed not despite how great he is and what good he did/does to the community, but especially because of it. When it comes to pay files, things like greatness and helpfulness become utterly irrelevant - judgement on the matter needs to stay depersonalized in order for the principle to remain objective, and thus valid. We don't judge the creator, we judge the file. Is it pay? yes? Then let it be booty. It really is that simple, to me.

Just for funzies, you can start reading at the post linked below.  It was Numenor's fellow modder Inge that brought his payfile to Hec's attention in the first place in a discussion about Misleading Links to 'free' downloads.  Not that Inge's points are invalid or anything, but that she mentioned discussing them with Numenor made me remember it:

http://phorum.mustnotbenamed.com/viewtopic.php?p=38411&highlight=#38411

It was this comment specifically that lodged like a splinter in my brain:

"I have a feeling he's actually got that file there to see what happens as much as because he wants the money. I had a strong "devils advocate" feeling when he was debating it at the FFSS"

So...I'm paranoid.  Because they're out to get me.    :lol:

I respect skill, I respect generosity, I respect work.  I respect others who have alternate or differing views because that educates, I respect those who give enough of a damn to see beyond themselves because that can matter more than anything sometimes.  I see all of those things in this community, here, MATY, Insim, MST2, any number of sites and forums, yes, even the official site has a great number of people who do all those things on a regular basis.  They cannot be discounted.

All I want is for those to whom I show respect to show me a bit in return.  It's not so much to ask, common courtesy.  Don't have to do anything except not call me a moron for existing, which is what initally came out of this Numenor thing for me.  

And yes, I'm really that easy.

Numenor's file should stay in the Booty as long as any amount of money is required to obtain it, for that is the established criteria and it's no big secret that no one is immune.  If he cannot see the principle behind this and that it is the fault of paysites who abuse other gamers that caused it to happen this way, then he's quite out of the loop and needs to catch up.

I will not insult his intelligence by concluding he's merely on an ego trip.  I'll give him the benefit of the doubt that he hasn't experienced what too many of us have at the hands of certain paysites.  I cannot know beforehand that when I give over actual funds to a paysite that I will not be cheated somehow.  There is no check and balance and it's gotten well out of line.  I wish paysites would police themselves and rein in the worst of them, but that will never happen.

The Booty is drastic, but what else has made the most impact and raised the most awareness?

Saying 'please' certainly didn't.

Apparently you're under the impression that I take for granted some of the creators that do make things but don't ask for their egos to be stroked.

I do appreciate what Pescado has done and there alot of other creators I appreciate too. (Meaning go back and read what I said about Numenor deserving the respect but not an ass-kissing. Read...it's fundamental).

blackmars
I got that impression from your first post.
No i do not think that you are taking anything for granted. Your post with
"ass-kissing" were written when i wrote my post, and as a non-english, i use a bit more time to write. Kissing his ass? I don't think people do that.
Look at TSR and see how they kiss real assholes.

Heck, I don't even need thanks. One person downloads a file I put out there and I feel great about it...like it was worth jumping through hoops or the time it took to take a screenshot and pop it into a .rar.

As a pirate, i would thank free artists to promote free sites - that's
why i think it's important to give them feedback :)

That's how I feel about the freebies on my 4shared site. To date, there are several hundred downloads, and only 5-6 people ever thanked me, and I think I only heard from two of them because 4shared has stupid robots filtering filenames. I had to rename some things to make them downloadable.

Do I care that hundreds of downloads have been made without comment? Absolutely not. I'm grateful for the "this is neat, yay!" stuff, but I share because I want to give something back, not because I think my stuff is great or for recognition or praise. And it is all free. Always.

No hoops to jump through, no registrations or log-ins, no secret pizza fund, and no toe-sucking, grovelling and/or grape-peeling required. (Even if I do have a cult, it isn't very demanding of its members. ;))

Yes, also, the thought of being perceived as an asshole by the rest of the community doesn't bother me in the slightest. I already know I'm an asshole. I've done nothing to hide this. The fact that people persist in believing otherwise is simply an example of the human capacity for self-delusion.

EXACTLY.

If someone is doing something in return for thanks, that is still expecting a kind of payment. I do not understand this. Thanks are a nice bonus, and it's very nice to be appreciated, but whenever I've made something for a game, it's for my own use and I think "hey, maybe other people will want it too."

As soon as you do something in return for payment from others, whether it's money or thanks or underwear or webcams, you no longer have a hobby. You have a job.

I don't need thanks for the stuff I've made and share. Everytime I see that something's been downloaded and that it didn't lead to a pixel-mob trying to pixel-slap me, I have a happy moment.  :D





*Edited typo

Does this remind anyone else of the "Boston Tea Party"?

Pes is a revolutionary who has ruffled some very big feathers. I am proud to be part of it.

How come everyone always disagree with me?  :(  I thought it was ok
to promote freesites, by saying, thank you for giving me this for free.
And to paysites: fuck you, i don't like your attitude.

If some of you do not want to be thanked for creating anything, ok by me. Just look at the thread: look at my creations and worship me. Don't people want any feedback on their creations? I'll remember the nicknames and ain't gonna say anything if you do not need any feedback. (Liers).  :wink: You just say this now, cause the entire
issue with Numenor is that he wanted feedback, and then, some of you
must show the opposite attitude - of course.

Simple psychology.

They didn't say they don't want to be thanked. They are saying that they don't need to be thanked to enjoy creating. I'm sure they appreciate whenever someone thanks them, but it isn't necessary for their ego. And the title of that thread, look at my creations and worship me, is a mock. Or maybe it was a Freudian slip. Who knows, who cares.

Amazone, I think that's a bit unfair to think that those here are taking the opposite attitude simply because they feel that Numenor is being fussy or because they want to disagree with you (unless you are being sarcastic, which is more likely than not around these parts). Everyone (except Pescado, of course) appreciates thanks for their work, hobby or no. I don't think anyone was saying that they wouldn't appreciate it if people were kind enough to thank them. However they were merely pointing out that thanks were not the sole or the main reason for why they create CC, which I think is a fair statement. I don't think anyone was saying it for spite.

Edit: grammar error

I've looked at TSR and that is just one big ass kiss orgy. Anyhow, if you got that impression then it shows that the written word does not often convey the emotion that seeing and hearing someone speak does.


If you read Numenor's essay and the polls he had they are skewered to his perception so that basically either people will agree with him or people won't. There is no gray area on his polls and I see that as him wanting to have his ego stroked so the mean "pirates" will take his tanning bed out of the booty and leave him be.

And Lorelei, I agree. I recently made a group of sims and it made me pleased to know that one person is out there enjoying them. They thanked me and that was good, but just knowing that someone is enjoying what I made is good enough.

I think that his action of shutting down the forums has far more potential to say things about Delphy than it does about the booty, and political expedience.  I think that whatever action happens, it says something about the people who do it.

Just as keeping the file in the booty says something about us - i.e. no more fucking paysites.

Personally, shutting down those threads was the wrong move.
Alot of people were excited to finally be able to discuss the whole situation there, then to just lock 'em up makes no sense.
But new threads will be started, right?
Hopefully not by Numenor!
HP did a fantastic start of it the first time. She should get to give it a go at round 2.

Guys

You misunderstand me to a degree, which is partially my fault.. While I wish the booty wasn't there and I don't download from it because I'm not a pirate, if it has to be there all pay files have to be there. Because with your stance you can't show favouritism, otherwise noone will take you seriously..

And when it comes to Pescado, I kinda like the fact you know where you stand with him.. He goes for the throat because, well, that's his natural reaction.

Blackmars, my pulling you up was just because I know how the other side of the coin feels to a degree.. I was saying to Calaily offline, it sucked when Sims 2 came out, because most of us didn't know how to do this stuff. So we worshipped anyone who could do friggin' anything, and we held them in too much reverence. Things are much more democratic now, the "consumers" have become much more demanding with the paysites, which is their right. But they also turn the same behaviour on the free or mostly free creators. And when you're doing something just because you want to help out, that kind of attitude drives you up the wall and makes you want  to tell everyone to fuck off. Because if you're not getting paid and this isn't your job and everyone is yelling at you constantly (or it feels like that) why the hell would you bother helping others?

If we don't learn to be a little gentler with each other in the community, we're going to end up with no modding tools and no creativity when Sims 3 hits... Maybe that would suit Maxis, but I'm sure the rest of us would hate it.

By the way, I like it here.. this is one of the few places where I will argue with anyone, at all.

Angha

When TS3 comes out creators are going to leave regardless because they can't make the leap from TS2--we saw it happen already, where creators who did fantastic stuff in TS1 couldn't cut it in TS2, or perhaps they just weren't interested.  Hell, not everyone can afford a computer that can run the game, and people tend to leave communities, especially when there are sequels and almost everyone is moving on.

But it wasn't the end of the world, even though most of the community had switched to the newer game and almost completely forgot about the old.  There were plenty of new creators who just showed up and had at TS2--so while we may lose a few creators during the transition, I do believe that there'll be plenty of new people who are willing to attempt to fill a few voids.

There will be people out there who will want to mod TS3, who will want to create for it.  They may not have been part of the TS2 or TS1 communities, but they will want to do it.  There's always someone who wants to do it.

If anyone gets irritated by a hobby, anyone who seriously get hurt and upset because of it, but continue to do it for whatever reason, then I say why the the hell are they beating themselves with a stick?  It's a game.  If you start crying because people are criticising the stuff you created, then you need to step away and do something else for a while.  I don't think the game or the creation of CC for the game is worth any serious drama.

Ensign EO, I actually did that, which is why I'm around and a lot quieter these days.. I think you might have missed my point. My point is that someone who has a good brain in their head and is creative and is only trying to help is the last person the Sims community wants to lose.. It's like shooting yourself in the foot.

What's the harm in wanting people to improve, to avoid plateauing?  Isn't that just trying to help--letting people know that they can continue to better themselves and what they do?  If the creator is happy with their current level of work, great--they can ignore people's comments on how to improve instead of having a hissy fit about all the stress and horrors of being unappreciated.

I'm not particularly upset when a creator says, "Screw it, I'm leaving."  Like I said, I don't see the point in beating yourself with a stick--years from now none of this is going to matter much, so why let stupid things get to you that much?  No one is holding a gun to anyone's head and forcing them to create.  (Well, who knows about the paysites and their employees.)

I actually don't mind a constructive critique at all, I have one or two people that I turn to regularly for impartial advice. There's a big difference however between a constructive critique and a complete stranger turning up at your site and going "you suck because you don't do custom meshes".. That's just someone who has no damn right sticking their nose in your business and who is acting like an ungrateful two-year-old. As far as I'm concerned, if you run or make stuff for a totally free site, if someone doesn't like your stuff you point and tell them, there's the door.. You don't actually have to make anyone happy but you and the people you work with on your site. Because if you're doing it to make anyone but you happy, it stops being a hobby.

Having walked out the door myself, I think doing that is actually important, and I think the community should freak out about it a bit less than they do.. Things can get very heated, people can burn out for a bit and they need to go do something else. Then if they come back, it's a bonus.

No we won't. People will come along and fill in the gaps -- though honestly, what gaps? Peggy? Boo friggin' hoo. Hopefully these people won't expect payment in any form for their hobby, because they'll be more like people in every other game modding community I've ever seen. The Sims community is an aberration. (It's also an aberration in how incredibly nasty some people regularly are to each other, but I think that's largely a reaction to the disgusting ass-kissing that goes on.)

Oh, also, didn't RGiles help create the CEP in the first place? I know Numenor's the only one working on it now, but he seems to be getting all the credit for it, which isn't right.

Look, either you do something for the fun of doing it, and share it because you get a kick out of sharing it, or you're doing it with the expectation of getting something from people. The latter is an atrocious reason to pursue a hobby. There are people who agree with that statement, and people who don't; and I think that's the biggest divide in this community.

Fuck being gentle, anyway.  Who wants to be in a community that caters to 12-year old fanbrats?

The community's already full to the brim with fake niceness, and the effect you see is thus:  if anyone holds a belief contrary to a creator, their world-view apparently shatters around them, and they flounce off and go home.  If people had acted like honest human beings from the get-go, maybe everyone would've developed some thicker skins and would be acting their age.

Quinctia, one half of your statement is right, the other half is totally over the top. It's this "fuck being gentle" stuff.. It's not just the 12 year old fanbrats who like a bit of peace and quiet most of the time, most of the community do.

While a proportion of people in the community play the politics and like the argument, what most people in the community is to come back home from their often really difficult lives and have a bit of escape. While they don't mind constructive suggestions, riding roughshod over someone is the last thing they want. And if you go down the path where we all yell and scream at each other all the damn time, this stops being a hobby.. which is the accusation we frequently throw at sites like TSR, with reason.

There's a sensible middle ground in all of this.. There's a place for a bit of decent honesty where you can say "you did this bit well but this bit didn't quite work" as opposed to tearing someone down. And if we swing from the fake crap I've seen people pull where we have to give each other 5* for everything and go "cool" to a situation where everything becomes open warfare including the bits that really don't need to be, the community isn't any better off. It's just a different kind of absolutely dreadful. And it's not any more grown up either.

The problem is, to someone that has never received criticism, anything that's not overwhelmingly positive, is considered a horrible, terrible thing.  It doesn't matter how nice you try to be, they don't want to hear it, and you can burn in hell.  And there's no way you can justify it, because you were lying, essentially, to be as nice as you were in the first place.  I'm not saying go around and undeservedly flame the pants off of people, but I'm saying that it's not really a good thing to keep the kid gloves on all of the time.

Seriously.  Considering the amount of teenage fic writers I've won over with my policy of brutal honesty tempered with the praise for things done right, I think I've found a decent way to go about it.  Of course, fandom hasn't been cultivating a cult of nice wholesale, either.  But hell yes, fuck being gentle, because it makes the praise that much more worth it.  You'll have to deal with tantrums, and that's messy and a pain, but if you hold your own, and explain yourself, you'll generally win people over.  Some people will NEVER be able to cope with honesty, but they wouldn't cope with anything less than excessive ass-kissing in the first place.   ;)

But that's really the stem of this problem with Numenor.  He's not getting his way, and he's throwing a tantrum.  And this is a guy who's gotten tons of praise, adoration, thanks, and donations tossed his way, for a site that doesn't even host anything.  I don't begrudge him any of this, up to the point where his entitlement complex has overgrown his head.

amazone: I think you have missed this sarcasm level on this site.

We're pirates, even though we don't actually "pirate" any content, we buy it and file-share it. There are a few exceptions, but, typically, any actual sharing in the "pirate" sense is done through PMs, and I haven't seen any threads on OMBD offering EA Games' property for free.

We have a "worship me and my creations" thread, although we don't want or expect worship, and some of us are aware we are not the best creators within the community. If I recall correctly, that thread was started as a poke at self-important creators who think their efforts deserve paid reward or grovelling and ass-kissing.

We talk about sharing rum and cookies, but I still have to go buy my own.

There's a level of whimsy and sarcasm here that may be flying over your head, if you are misinterpreting our lingo and slang and believing it to be serious.

The only thing we are serious about is complying with the EULA and making sure all custom content is available to anyone.

What are you talking about? Peggy has lots of gaps! Have you SEEN some of the crap she's peddling?

If there are gaps to fill, Peggy sure as hell isn't filling them! :lol:

ETA:  constructive criticism + not asked for + creator with paper skin = Head EXPLODE!

ETA2:  Numenor- He makes some sense in his ramblings but he doesn't seem to understand PMBD-how it works and that it doesn't do favoritism.



Call 9-1-1!  Numenor's inflated head is going to.. you guessed it!  EXPLODE!

Did I mention the godawful example of Peggy gapness I saw recently? Blythe was taking one of the Free Love spawn to their birthday cake. you could see her teeth through the neck gap. If I can find the pic (I think I deleted it) when I get home in a few, I'll post it. It's a relatively recent hair, too.

Nice of you to teach me Lorelei, as if i did not know already. I am the person i am, take it or leave it. I can also be sarcastic, but people might misunderstood me, maybe it's a language barriere, i don't know, or i have a very special humor. But i was serious about the feedback thing, i can be brutally honest myself, but also nice if i see someone is making stuff i really like. By the way - you are one of my favorites here, i think you write a lot who makes great sense :)

This post is edited by me.

Which is why I thought to use her as an example :wink:.

Numenor compared himself to the RED CROSS? Dear goddess.

If the Red Cross tried to make me pay to get their food/water, yes I'd shoot them.

Amazone: I'm sorry if my post felt harsh to you. Perhaps *I* misunderstood *you*! :)

I just don't think the "worship me" thread is meant to be taken seriously. No one has, at least, taken it seriously so far.

No kidding. I couldn't believe that he wrote that.
How making nifty stuff for pixel dollies equates to saving lives is beyond me.
Hopefully I'm just scrutinizing that too hard or something and he didn't really mean it like that...? :?
And welcome back.

Well, I take it seriously, but when I make comments I do it as a serious attempt to constructively evaluate the work that is posted there. I don't think I've ever given anybody all raves in the "worship me" thread, but I am always impressed by the work that people put out and by their acceptance of honest, fair criticism (requested or not :wink: ). I think in some ways that is what that thread has evolved into and it's one of the few places in the Sims world that people can find fair assessments about their work (and it is certainly not about worshipping anyone :lol: ).

You know what? One year the river here flooded big time.  The little town to the north of us was awash.. but our house was high enough to be high and dry.  The Red Cross came by and was almost crying because we wouldn't take anything from them.  Although my kitchen could have used a new mop, broom and cleaning supplies (http://mistymage.com/sims2stuff/evil.gif) , I kept telling them we didn't need anything.  Finally I allowed my children to accept some granola bars.

My point:

Rum is good, banoobies is better and any content created for Sims games should be given from the heart .. just as the funds raised and the volunteer time are given from the Red Cross. Numenor needs to get over himself... I'm glad that Gnohmon (Sims 1) is free and fileshare friendly!

I wonder how hard it would be for Pescado to come up with a CEP with his own twists to it?

~misty

That is basically a fundamental misunderstanding of what CEP really involves. CEP itself is a fairly simple procedure to do, as far as just making everything recolorable. It's a somewhat tedious procedure, but it's in and of itself, simple. Numenor's contribution to the making of CEP is really not the actual making of CEP itself, but the discovery of the method by which such a thing was possible.

I, however, do not use CEP and have no particular need for filling my game with crappy recolors. I need my game loading FAST, because otherwise nothing would ever get done.

You and me both, if my game took longer than a few minutes to load I'd control alt delete close the sucker, go on a deleting rampage and reboot.  Which is why I delete 90 percent of recolors. Patience is not my best virtue.

Thats ok Lorelei :) What i meant was to show some feedback to the
free creators who run free sites, and free creators at MTS2 or other phorums, like Insim too. I did never expect, or wanted people worshipping each other here, heck, we're pirates, lol.

Hawkgirl:
Does really recolors slow the game down? I thought retextures would
do the same thing, or all downloads, it depends how much one have in that map. ?

A *FEW* minutes? I run lean and mean at a mere 80 MB, and if it took a *FEW* minutes, as opposed to *LESS THAN* a minute, I'd have quit ages ago.

Well actually,Pescado, the recolors don't really effect the loading time that much. Unless you're timing your loading time. Maybe not even then. All the other stuff do though. But maybe you're just anal about your loading time. Heh.  :roll:  *likes to live dangerously*

well then, you would absolutely hate doing anything on my computer.  It's jam packed with sims 2, and then miscellaneous crap, and is older than methuseleh.  I don't think I've ever had the game load in less than a minute.  I usually click on it, and then wander off for about 5 minutes, smoke a cigarette, and then come back and load whatever neighborhood I'm playing. Then the game runs fine.  It's at least just the load that is excessively long.

Five? Mine takes at least half a goddamned hour to load, and that's down from the 45 it used to take before I deleted some shit.

I feel your pain. Mine use to take that long too. Now it's like 7 minutes. I play my game in windows mode, so I can be online while playing. Sometimes I forget that my game is in play mode, and my sims' motives go down or die. Or when sound is turned up I can hear then complaining in the background.

It used to be that long, but then I deleted my entire downloads folder and started over.  Now there's not as much cc in the game.  and if there's anything in the game that I am not using, or even remotely dislike, it's instantly deleted.  It was taking so long at one point that I thought the game was no longer responding.

I don't know so much if it's all the recolors. I also pay very close attention to the poly count on new items I add. A lot of sites say 3000 vertices/faces per tile is max. I won't go over 2. If it's over 2000 it has to leave my game and I try to stay away from it even being close to 2. I don't care how much I like it, plus to (Sir Pes) I keep my game at 2 gigs of CC and no more than 500 megs of homes. So let me have my 3 minutes, I am a grandmother for pete's sake. I have to have something to entertain me. pfft. I can only torture my grandbabies for so long, although they think I am a human toy, before I need a new source of entertainment. lol

I collect a lot of houses. I could easily go 30 gigs with homes and not miss my CC, other than hair. As long as I keep it at that magic point 2 gigs/500 megs for homes I noticed it still loads quickly. Once I exceed it, my game seems to run like a slug. Highest I ever had at one time was almost 4 gigs of CC and 2 gigs of homes, plus I had over 2,000 character files. I had over 200 Sims and it took about 5/6 minutes to load. So I moved everything, reset my neighborhoods and now I am keeping it at the above numbers. I only keep one recolor for things downloaded from the net, and 1 for any Maxis mesh I have, all others go. I actually have a system for CC. 3 clicks or next pages are allowed of CC no more, anything more I delete till it's right at 3. It's a great system. lol I am anal about my subfolders too. I have a separate category for everything. That way if I get bored with say Kitchen furniture and want to change it, I just go in and move everything in Kitchen. Same for bathroom, Livingroom, windows, doors, hair, clothing, etc...

I use like Hawk Girl subfolders for most stuff. Well currently I have almost 8GBs, and 2GB RAM, 3.6 processor it takes about 10-15 mins to load. I really have not timed it but its not a long wait. What i like to do is try stuff. Every once in a while I start with fresh hoods, and take out all DLs then, when I put DLS back in take some out. When the new eP is here I start strictly with all maxis, slowly rebuilding my DLS, adding new stuff to try. (Hope that made sense) I got 2 drives on here of 200GB each plus a DVD writer so Im not space limited.

10 minutes? Aaah! Mine takes somewhere between one and one-and-a-half minutes (not timed it, either :P) and I think that's way too long. I have 2206 downloads, 217mb, and I spend at least a minute or two every day working on lowering that. It's so nice to dress someone, make them over, decorate a house and not have to scroll through a million pages of crap (well, apart from some Maxis stuff of lesser quality XD). I don't understand how anyone could even be using twice of what I have unless they have themed neighbourhoods or many extra races or something. I don't use all of what I have, which is why I'm still getting through it. It's like all clean-outs - it's a bit painful at first, but it feels so good after that you're glad you did! XD

I read somewhere that too much subfoldering slows down loadup speeds, so I only have one extra 'level' inside my downloads folder. It's by creator if I have at least a dozen or so files by them, and then I have a 'buildandbuy' and 'cas' folder for the rest. Default replacements live in the main folder, and there's three folder for hacks, UK spelling adjustments and my face replacements :)

I have almost the same as you, except I have 8 gigs of ram, a 300 gig HD, 120 gig media drive, plus a 200 gig external hd. I don't have a lot on my main HD either just a few games and all my graphic programs. Something I realized, and I don't know why. Is that I don't have a lot of bedroom stuff, my bedroom stuff is in with bathroom stuff. I think I have downloaded one bed and that's one that uses a dustruffle, because that's what I use here on my beds. I'm pretty content with what Maxis gave us for bedroom furniture. Even for the children because I have FFS. Other than toddler, infant furniture. I do have a lot of it. I think Kathy and Katy-Hope are the only creators I have a separate folder for in my downloads. I love all Katy's little mods, and Hopes grow up sets on SMB. Kathy I think I've just about downloaded everything she's made so it has to have it's own folder.

ETA: Here's how my subfolders are divided, I have 8 files in my main download folder. Bodyshop replacement, lighting, Scriptorium is 4 files, CEP and Insim.

Bathroom
Build
Clothing-Adult
Clothing-ChildT
Clothing-Teen
Doors
Hair
Kathy
Katy-Hope
Kitchen
Living
Make-up
Misc-Objects
Mods1
MyJunk
Paintings
Plants
Skins-Eyes
Vehicles
WallPapers-Floors
Windows

My file names to many to list but I do have a Kathy folder, her and Erics stuff are together except for Insim, I keep that loose with character files and skintones, and CEP in the DL folder.

My file names are like by site or artist, function, build, somes set like Tuscan Kitchen.
I find that easier to work with. Like I always have YGGDRASIL, or Holy Simoly, etc, those are one of the first to go in the new DL when the new EP is here.

What speeds uploading too is collection files> I always use those.

But cleaning out DLS helps. GOSH, if you saw how much I downloaded, but a small percentage of what I get is used. sometimes its more like having it in case I want to use it.

I have Eric's stuff in with Kathy's stuff also. I never realized making collection files would speed up uploading time. I'll have to make some for the things I don't have collection files for, thank you for the tip :)

Yes it will help. Too if you have a crowded catalog, sometimes stuff will only show there.

One tip on those back up your collection file before adding a new EP, you will loose your collection file if you dont. What I like is if I remove the file from DLs if I keep the collection file there, then I will have it if I put the file back in.

Aww, thanks!  I did wonder a little if people had even noticed I had been gone.

Short version of happenings:  Week break from PMBD.  Two computers borked to the point of paper weights.  Move to another city.  Cut from internet for weeks.  Tears.  Forced to go back to ancient OS.  More Tears.  Internet.  Back to PMBD.  Rejoice!

Actually it was noticeable:
http://phorum.mustnotbenamed.com/viewtopic.php?p=49217#49217
After no one replied, I thought maybe you just got fed up and left.

Yes, but my gameplay involves constantly doing the error/quit/fix/restart loop. If it took 5 minutes just to reload after changing a line of code, it'd be intolerable.

Welcome back, Miss Angelica.  Sorry you had all the craziness, but glad that you are able to be here once again.

Ah, if only I were so ambitious with my downloads folder. I'm almost inspired to go through my folder and organize it better...well almost. ;)

Quincita, sorry for not replying to you earlier hun.. I got preoccupied with other stuff over the weekend. I can see your point here, I have actually seen people go off the deep end because people have given them gentle criticism. And I do often get stared at these days like I'm from Mars because I'll say to noobs on the exchange "It will help your downloads no end if you include screenshots"..  I think we've probably got a different way of explaining the same approach I think. I remember Moira bluntly telling a noob on the exchange that not every peice of work is worth 5* and I thought "good for you".. My feeling is that as long as we stay rational and calm with people, they either leave or grow up eventually.

I think the behaviour issue is partially the fault of the ordinary masses like me early on.. before I learned how to do anything, I used to revere even really crap skinners. So some of the guys that have been around since early on have grown to expect this is their due regardless. Numenor I still have less of an issue with it though, because he has done a lot for us as a community, and I do hope this gets resolved..

Ash, subfoldering is the only way to keep yourself sane if you're making stuff to share from the same folder you play with.. I've usually got at least three going. It's less intimidating than it looks if you create somewhere temporary to put your stuff, then get The Clean Installer to sort your stuff by type, and then wholesale move them into their appropriate folders. All told, it should take about ten minutes.

Fair enough.

@ missangelica: welcome back

I don't make items to share but having an organized downloads folder would be nice. I do have some things already in their own neat little folders but most items are kind of free floating. The main reason I have yet to take on the task of organizing the rest of my files is because it seemed like such a  massive chore to tackle. But perhaps I will give it a go sometime soon as you do make it seem less exasperating than I had first imagined.

Lorelei, I raided and got some of your stuff, I liked the look of it and it works fine in my game. Thank you!
Missangelica, I was wondering why in the hell you were so silent! Welcome back and hope all is going well for you.
As for copyrighting their creations, that is hard to do when you're modifying something that is copyrighted by someone else first, ya know?
Numenor, love you to bits but it's a fuggin payfile so it's booty-able. Meh!
Pescado, mine loads fast and I've got plenty of shit in there. Must be all the RAM I've got, I designed the damn thing for games. Spent most of the tax refund on it, too, and its not going on the net until I can find an anti-virus program better than McAfee or Nortons that doesn't cost me my first born child and a pint of blood every ten days.

Try AVG (http://free.grisoft.com/), Paden. That's the anti-virus program that I'm using, as I was having the same problem that you are (well, okay, in my case it was just me being totally cheap). It works beautifully and the best part is that it is totally, completely, 100% free.

Hey Ash

This is how you do it fairly easily if you ever decide to give it a go... Create yourself a "custom content" folder outside of your downloads folder. Create hacks/recolours folders within it, however many you want. Open up Clean Installer.. you will see a dropdown box up the top called "chose directory".. Pick your downloads folder

Click where it says "type" on the bar up the top.. this sorts your stuff into different types of items like walls, floors, hacks.. from memory the only thing you can't subfolder is bodyshop files (you guys can correct me if I'm wrong here)

Then you move 'em.. how you do this quickly is you click on the top file of it's type.. then shift click on the bottom file of it's type, right click on them while they're highlighted and go "Move To".. "Browse" and find the folder you've created for them.. Rinse and repeat until you're done, then move your folders back.. Takes about ten or fifteen minutes, like I said.

Angha

Thank you very much for all the tips. I might just try to finally organize all my files when I next have the free time. ;)

That's all I use too and since they gave it to me for years for free, I finally broke down about three years ago and bought the AVG Internet protection. Went to McAfee for a bit, and even tried Norton cause I thought surely they would be better than a free firewall(which by the way I also used from AVG)...I'll stick with AVG. Spybot and Adaware. I've donated to both of those as well and CCleaner. First things that all went on my new PC when I got it.

:lol: Interesting story. What would make it a terrifying story worthy of much pity would be if the OS was... Windows ME! *horror* :P
But yeah, welcome back. See, look how we noticed, don't you feel all popular now. ;)

And extra note, I don't use it anymore but AVG is a very nice program. I recently tried AntiVir and it drove me nuts. If I had to choose a free anti-virus program, I'd definitely choose AVG. Comodo Firewall is another free program I like if you're still looking for that firewall. Kinda drove me nuts, too, when I first started out with it, what with all the IP address confirmation popups but I like it better than ZoneAlarm now. Which was a good firewall itself, it just pissed me off how it would keep phoning home. LOL PARANOIA

I just had a virus where I lost all my game files, and personal pictures, and norton found nothing. My old un-updated Ad-aware caught the thing, so i decided to buy ad-aware 2007. . It's free too, and works like a charm. I just hate norton anymore!

NoaNikko is using his poll to their advantage, I think. On their donation page it says "Numenor's say on Donation items, a must read."

I love Ad-aware because it seems to catch everything. I like spybot because it has the immunization, so it blocks all the pages known to have adware, trojans. Plus you can choose how you want to block them. Only thing I don't like in the new update is it keeps reseting my web settings to block sites, so I go to download something and it says to lower my settings. Or at least I think it's Spybot doing it, could be one of the others. Have you come across that yet? Or anyone using Lavasoft, AVG, or Spybot?

ETA: Oh you know McAfee did do something right, I had a trojan once, nothing horrible, just kept redirecting me to some porn site, and every email I sent had a link to the porn site. So people thought I had lost my mind. lol But only thing that caught it and cleaned it up with no problems was Stinger, it's a little free proggie by McAfee, like their site advisor.

Another great free anti-virus program if you're using the computer for non-commercial use only is AVAST! (The name seems rather appropriate for this forum, now that I think about it.) I have that one on one of my computers. (I use AVG for the other one.)

http://www.avast.com/eng/avast_4_home.html

Many people I know either really like AVG or this one, and both programs have some very avid users. The only problem I see with AVAST! is that sometimes, you get false positives, but then again, I sometimes get false positives with AVG, too.

In addition to my AVG or AVAST!, AdAware and Spybot, I also like this program:

http://www.javacoolsoftware.com/spywareblaster.html

After that, though, I wouldn't go TOO crazy with the anti-spyware programs, though. I've read that too many of them are not very helpful in the long run.

I've read his rant 3 times now (very carefully) and for some reason, it sorta ends up sounding like the rants of others. (think of any creator who ranted about file-sharing) They all end up sounding alike to me.  :roll:



Ermmm.....okay. Then "until Maxis complains about file-sharing, I will claim my right to share files that I purchase with whomever I choose." Everyone keeps threatening that creators will leave. I say BU'BUH as I wouldn't miss a single one of those who create things for any reason beyond sharing or thanks. And if this is his reaction, fine........I'll have no problem pulling CEP or any of his shit outta my game. I don't mind playing vanilla.  :D Course I'm probably in the minority. I am as disgusted with him as with all those other creators who pitch little fits.  :?

(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b218/Requip/shame.jpg)

Well if it's a minority - I'm part of that.  I can live without objects - and don't currently have any in my game (except Paladin's hacked fish and fruit storers thingy).  An object has to be totally spectacular for me to download (one of which was that bedroom set of Sherry's <3 ) and store.  I can't live without bodyshop - and I don't need anyone but me for that if push comes to shove.

I have to agree about the threats about creators leaving - I don't mind.  I mean, I *might* have made the most spectacular hair mesh ever seen - but I don't share it, so it's not missed.  There might be the most fantabulous creators who have never connected to the internet - and I don't miss their stuff either.  So if a creator leaves - for a silly reason or a really good reason - you never know what you've never had.

*Please don't badger me for a hair mesh - example only. I cannot mesh and thinking about the time required to devote to it makes me want to cry.

I agree with what calaliy said.  If Peggy packed up and left, big deal.  We still have Nouk.  (Actually we all prefer Nouk).  If Carla Niven closes shop then we still have 2-for-u.  If Simslice decided to pull the plug then we can always turn to Pes, twojeffs and crammyboy (who have a wider variety of hacks and mods anyway).

When one door closes another opens and when one narcissistic creator pitches a hissy fit and takes up their toys and goes home then there will be at least two other creators willing to step up to the plate to fill their shoes.

You can find free varieties of pay files if you just look hard enough.

2-f0r-u?  Chriko?

They're a paysite, are they not?  Pick another example, like All About Style.

Yes, but All About Style is good.  :D

I don't even bother to replace one creator with another - Nouk and Peggy can't be compared IMO.  And if Nouk had to go to take care of something, or had a baby, or even stormed off in a huff after seeing one of her creations on a fat sim - I've already got what Nouk made, and even if I don't - I'm going to live without it.

It's been so long since anyone referenced that, I forgot who started it.

That's pretty much how I look at it. It's been ridicules how some creators(both talented and not) have milked the sims community for every last bit of attention they could get. Not long ago all a creator had to do was pop into a forum and threaten to quit creating, and a shameless grovel fest would ensue.  Posters would slather them with praise and often times literally beg for them to reconsider. You still see that happening but (and I'd like to think that Pescado's site has helped) it is getting better. the attitude seems to be slowly shifting to a much more reasonable; " If you want to leave, then leave. Sorry things didn't work out".

In fact, I wonder if the bizarre atmosphere that surrounds this community might be keeping even BETTER potential creators from wanting to get involved.

I got a letter back from Numenor, I never got the impression he was looking for us to grovel at his feet. He even said he agrees believe it or not with the reason his item is in the booty. It's the rule for why it has to be in the booty he is concerned with. Anyway it was a nice letter. He seems like a good man.

*I never said that Numenor wanted us to grovel - my personal judgement on him will come when he actually does something*.

This is still confusing.  :?  He agrees with it being in the booty, but doesn't understand why the rules are the way they are?  If he wants to make exceptions that he deems worthy that's a headache too.

I often have problems understanding what Numenor says. I wonder how much of this has been due to mistranslation and misrepresentation.

Oh no, I think I need to say this is just a general statement. I never meant for it to be directed at you or anyone else. Honest. Just a statement on what we were all talking about and what so many creators do expect. It was just  feeling I got from his email back to me, that he wasn't looking for us to praise him or grovel at his feet. I know there are a lot that do expect that, or they pack up their toys and go into the Sims Twilight Zone. He didn't say who he deemed worthy or not, he just felt if we don't allow any room, we may end up defeating our purpose in the long run basically.

Allowing "room" is what got us to this point in the first place.  EA said sites could take monetary donations to pay for bandwidth, and now we have people making tons of money off the content.

Unfortunately, this is still the fault of the people who are taking advantage, not those who are putting up the booty.

I know I'm preaching to the choir in HERE, but that's so easily countered.  It would be counter productive if paysites were still in the early stages, but at this point the entire gifts for donations idea has been corrupted past the point of no return in this community, so a hardline stance on filesharing is necessary.  Otherwise, there is no point to doing it like this--in your face, not behind closed doors in a private forum--at all.

I wasn't thinking that you were saying that  :D Don't worry.  I just meant that we can read all kinds of intent into this poll, but it's moot until he does it.  Plenty of paysite owners do play the drama queen - but that doesn't mean that Numenor will.

I would be kinda unsurprised if he did throw a hissy fit - mainly due to his polls - which are heavily slanted towards what he wants us to think.  But I don't expect him to.  Numenor has always struck me as a little more firmly hinged than that.

As for who he deemed worthy to the whole thing - he's already named Vita Sims (who I've read is one of the most expensive paysites) and others.  He wants us to draw a wishy washy line - and as Quinctia says that's what got us here in the first place.

Numenor is nice.  He's helped me with things, when all I'd asked was for permission to use some of his objects for repositories.  But I think that, while he has very good english, sometimes its forgotten that its not his native language.

And considering the misunderstandings two people speaking the same language can have, its no wonder there can be problems when one or all people in a discussion don't speak the language its in natively.

I agree but I don't think I'm "misunderstanding" his feelings at all.  :? And I've had enough of creators who want support for having their things "stolen".  :roll: Sorry, but that's the way it reads to me.  :D

Well, hell, I know Numenor's not ridiculously overprotective of his stuff--really, as I'm prepping lots for upload, I'm loving his and MaryLou's policies on build stuff redistribution.  And I try to respect creator's wishes about that kind of thing when I'm making stuff to share.

I just wish he wasn't so butthurt about the sharing of the tanning bed, because it's not actually about him, it never was about him, and I just wish he had the understanding to see that, instead of trying to construe it to being about him.  I highly doubt that item being in the booty will affect the amount of his donations one way or the other--since I doubt that people really donated FOR his item in the first place.

So why be offended about it?

That makes me very happy. Yay! I am glad you like it.

As I said another time, I don't think that donation gift is about the money, I think it's a social experiment.  I think he's interested to see what happens and what people say.   I don't think he's offended really, just interested in the debate.   Anyway it's MTS2 that bears most of the cost of people downloading Numenor's work, and of Numenor giving his advice to modders, so it would really be more fitting to donate to them if you appreciate Numenor - which of course most of us do.  If you think about it, if Numenor didn't have his donation gift, he wouldn't have the costs of running his site, cos that's all that's on the site.

Marylou's got a site with actual stuff on it.

Aside from the cost of the domain name, I know of free (no-ad) webhosting for a site that small, so that site shouldn't be costing him more than $8-15 a year, depending on his registrar.

Is the tantrum throwing over (in poll form) his item being shared part of the social experiment?  Anyone writing a poll that skewed has some sort of emotional investment in the answers.

Gods you people that could actually live without custom content have my envy!  As much money as I spend a month on custom content there is no way in hell I would ever got back to no custom content.  Everything from the walls my sims look at to their skin is custom and I refuse to go back to ugly, censored, no fashion sensed what the hell were you thinking when you put yellow and pink circles on the friggin wall crap Maxis packages with its games.  I too start out with a fresh DL folder for every EP though I refuse to live without Enyala's skins and Mikita's eyes.  I'm only willing to part with Peggy's hair and woe to the person who tries to make me live without Nouk's hair.  

My downloads folder is divided by artist and then sub divided by category.  I am very organized in my DL folder.  If Numenor decides to take his toys and go home I am confident one of the other modders could fix the CEP so it would work for whatever we needed it to.  *looks imploringly at the modders and uses Pooki's avi to help*

Well I speak fluent Italian (or at least I should since I'm an Italian citizen) so I can't say I've problems understanding Numenor due to language barrier.

I really think he stated what he believes. He wants to have something special to give to the people that donate. In consequence from his point of view filesharing destroys that "uniqueness". Just for a sample of the reasons I believe him:
- he's ok with getting cents, not a fixed price
- if he really wanted to be 'paid" he would have had many more opportunities than the majority of the paysiters.

I don't know why Numenor would ask for donations. I see the same from others that have their creations hosted only by Insim and MTS2. But those creators aren't giving back special files, at least not openly.