PMBD

At the weekend I read this post from this twat saying that peggy (and others who use poser hair) deserve to be paid for their 'work' as its very hard to convert them and she makes the textures all by herself...

....this pissed me off a lot.  :twisted: So I went onto Renderosity and had a little snoop around, and guess what I found? Yesss lots and lots and lots of hairs that had been converted from the sims.

So in a true pirate fashion, heres a little game for you...:

                       Look who stole that Poser content!

First up we have Sims2Sisters of TSR:

S2S 'Rasta Syle' hair (http://img481.imageshack.us/img481/5954/s2s3cp6.jpg) (pic from thread at S2C)

Definately the same hair, was spotted some time ago as stolen content and since then Sims2sisters has added StudioMaya in the little credit box on the download. However, has given none for the female version and had given none previous. Doubt that they asked permission of any sort as well. (correct me if I'm wrong)
Verdict: SAME

S2S 'Barbie' hair (http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/4718/s2s2bs4.jpg)
Once again definately the same hair and Sims2Sisters have given credit. They do not actually say that all they did is convert the hair from poser to sims though >.< And if you ask me that is not enough to make it pay! Its like charging for recolouring Maxis hair imao
Verdict: SAME

S2S 'Damien hair' and Sims2Sisters hair set  (http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/3373/sims2sisters1da6.png)
Exactly the same hair, credit is given on the 'Damien' hair but not on the female version.
Verdict: SAME

S2S 'Beauty' hair (http://img440.imageshack.us/img440/8216/s2s4zb6.jpg)
Hair is no longer at TSR, I have it in my game (will take pic soon) and without a doubt its exactly the same. If anyone has any pics of this hair then please post them :)
Verdict: SAME

Right, next we have ChazDesigns of TSR:

'Divine hair' (http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/3657/chazdesignsdt2.jpg)
Either stolen or too similar, not only is the mesh the same but the texturing is as well - look at the piece of hair tucked behind the ear. For some weird reason its not on his minisite, but found it here (http://www.thesimsresource.com/downloads/sims2/sets/268762/) - no credit given on that page, but if you view the hairs seperately credit is given o_O Weirrddd
Verdict: Same/'similar'

Next we have Marko of TSR:
Sunday Morning hair (http://img147.imageshack.us/img147/4231/adsadem5.png)
Am not too sure about this one, but there is a strong similarity between the hairs - general shape and particularly the flicks at the bottom. But am not sure..
Verdict: Possibly

And hear for us to Yargh! at to our little pirate hearts content...Thomas of TSR:
Diva hair (http://img251.imageshack.us/img251/5894/thomasft1.jpg)
See post number#10
Verdict: SAME!!!!

So thats the marvel of TSR out of the way with.  Also got pictures of hair stolen by Rose, Peggy, VitaSims and XMsims (not sure if I will post those, seeing as how they are a free site)...but will add them later as this post will probably take up too much space.

IMAO when it comes down to it, whether they have given the original creator credit or not, they did not make it and have no right to charge people money for it. And thats if you forget the fact that its against the EULA agreement

this is old news lol
It was discussed about 3 months ago in the why do people hate paysites thread over at s2c (and over here a bit too)
from this post down you can see comparison pictures and peoples responses to it and stuff: http://forums.sims2community.com/showpost.php?p=698385&postcount=310
It then led to the Poser Initiative thread and then to the Poser Initiative project over at mts2.

Thanks for the link Wicked One, I haven't seen it before :)

Yowsa.   They couldn't deny it if they tried.

Good work detective.

Wow! thats a crime!

Neither of those had any comparison pictures to point and laugh at, I don't think. THAT is where the damning evidence is.

Either way, do post more comparison pictures, CaptainJojoba.

In S2S's defense regarding the "Beauty" hair:
They used a mesh from the defunct web site "Sims2Beauty". S2B was, however, notorious for using Poser meshes. (I deleted several of them from my game recently. OH THE HIGH POLY PAINNN.)
So, yeah. They're not responsible for ripping that poser mesh.

And the "Damien" hair has been ripped by at least two other creators (Sunair, Guppy Gabriel).
Then again, I know that Guppy Gabriel gave credit (and Sunair may have, too. I can't recall.)

I do appreciate the comparisons, though. Thanks for posting 'em. I'm looking forward to seeing more (especially when you get to Peggy and Rose.)

actually there is comparison pictures over there, i just posted the first post the "evidence" was presented in. I wasnt going to post links to each individual post the comparison pics are in.I pointed you guys in the right direction, that should be sufficient.
There really isnt a need to repost here what is already over there, i mean besides posting links, especially since it was already discussed here while it was "new" news, but whatever lol

If I've got some that aren't on the S2C post then I'll post them. Sorry Wicked I'm behind all this as i only recently joined to S2C, so it is new news to me. :) but thanks still, its all proof that paysites are run by a bunch of thieving whiney irritating slugs...

eta:
these are some posts off of the S2C thread with comparison pics :D
 Rose Pay and TSR (http://forums.sims2community.com/showpost.php?p=698391&postcount=311)
 XMsims (http://forums.sims2community.com/showpost.php?p=698414&postcount=313)
 Peggy Pay (http://forums.sims2community.com/showpost.php?p=698436&postcount=314)
Peggy Pay (http://forums.sims2community.com/showpost.php?p=698446&postcount=318)
 TSR, Peggy, Rose, and others (http://forums.sims2community.com/showpost.php?p=699369&postcount=382)
 XMsim and Peggy Special Gift (http://forums.sims2community.com/showpost.php?p=699438&postcount=401)
 Various pays from Peggy and Rose, as well as XMsims (http://forums.sims2community.com/showpost.php?p=700630&postcount=465)
 XMsims (http://forums.sims2community.com/showpost.php?p=700648&postcount=468)

Sorry to spoil your thread, but I can definately confirm that the "Diva" hair mesh on TSR was not stolen.

I know, because I did the conversion, at the request of, and will the full knowledge of, the original Poser meshmaker.

In fact, he did most of the conversion himself - I supplied him with Sims2 "dummy" head meshes and told him what format and sizes I needed for the mesh files and textures.  I then did the assignments, and put them into .package files for him, which was then fowarded to Thomas at TSR.

I don't know about the others, but it's quite possible that they were done the same way.  They had asked me to do more conversions, but I declined - whoever it was that said it is a royal pain to convert Poser meshes to Sims2 is definately right.

Anyway, before you assume some Poser mesh is stolen, try contacting the original creator of the mesh.  They certainly would know.

wicked_one:

is it really that serious or are you just wanting credit for already having done what was done?

Thanks for the information Dr Pixel :) Point taken on with me saying that they are stolen - i'll change it to 'same mesh' or something like that.

lol i didnt do anything, if you had looked at the link, it was ghanima and nouk who did all the work :) I was just saying that there actually are comparison pics over there, if you look at that post and further into that part of the extremely-long thread, since mufushu said there were none at all.

Wicked was just saying they were there. Nouk and Ghanima posted them all (and there is a lot of them), have put links to the direct posts above

Ok here is Rose of Rosesims
Rose Donate 60 (http://img126.imageshack.us/img126/9237/60rose4ks8.jpg)
Hair looks reasonably similar from the front, however view from the side looks exceptionally similar.
Verdict: Very 'similar'

Rose Donate 15 (http://img253.imageshack.us/img253/3426/rosedonate15qk0.jpg)
Verdict: Same

Rose Donate 37 (http://img253.imageshack.us/img253/7417/rosedonate0037no4.jpg)
Verdict: Same

Rose Donate 58 (http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/2992/rose2gb9.jpg)
Verdict: Same

Rose Donate (cant remember the number) (http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/6654/rose3ln6.jpg)
From the Poser hair in the top right hand corner, has the same hair strands exactly.
Verdict: Same/Freakishly 'similar'

Rose Donate 47 (http://img112.imageshack.us/img112/5109/rosedonate0047fl7.jpg)
Quite similar to hair on left and right, with a straight hair texture would look very similar
Verdict: Similar

Rose Donate 57 (http://img253.imageshack.us/img253/1839/rosedonate57zh6.jpg)
Not very sure about this, but definate similarity.
Verdict: Similar/Influence

Rose Donate 64 (http://img253.imageshack.us/img253/2434/rosedonate64st8.jpg)
Similarity from front, side view is veryyy similar.
Verdict: Strong similiarity

Rose Donate 56 (http://img253.imageshack.us/img253/8941/rosedonate0056ip7.jpg)
Rather similar layers on both hairs, as well as similar bangs.
Verdict: Same/Similar

Rose Donate 62 (http://img253.imageshack.us/img253/8503/rosedonate0062cx3.jpg)
Verdict: Very similar

Thanks for posting all the links and pictures, some of them may have been seen before but its very interesting and convenient to have them all in one place and not over about 100 pages lol.

What I did wonder at was how quickly some people pointed the finger and accused sims 2 creators of theft, then tried themselves and found that it would be much simpler to make the mesh for scratch, and that it couldnt relaly be done easily at all.

See here

http://www.modthesims2.com/forumdisplay.php?f=490

especially here

http://www.modthesims2.com/showthread.php?t=216022


but the accusations against xm, peggy rose etc haven't been retracted.

Now Im not saying none of them were converted or ripped off. However, unless they are completely identical, very simple meshes, eg. Diva 'by' Thomas, which is obviously totally the same, I think that it is not certain they were converted from poser at all, with or without permission. Especially for the more wispy, complicated hair. Lots of the styles seem to be heavily inspired by the poser styles they resemble, and it might not be morally right to copy so blatantly, but if your a greedy payste owner who has to create hair every week or two like a factory production line, then your going to run out of ideas and turn to similar things for inspiration.

Theres no doubt peggy & rose can mesh for themselves, for example styles based on celebrities etc. Perhaps they too found it easier as HP said to make a similar mesh from scratch than try to convert meshes that were stolen. they must have known it would get them into trouble anyway....




Just my ideas. feel free to disagree, but I was wondering if anyone else had noticed this...almost duplicity/ hypocrsiy, not from HP necessarily, but from everyone who insists that all hairs with even the tiniest similarity is stolen, and ignores HP's post about 'feasibility' of converting poser meshes.


ETA- yay Johnny Depp icons  :D

I'm not convinced by HP's comments. That proves nothing really. I don't think that she has any obligation at all if she'd rather come up with her own meshes, so I'm not criticizing her. Just because she didn't sort out how to do it doesn't mean that no one has. I think that Pegy has figured out how to do it quickly and easilly, but isn't willing to share how.

The similarities are undeniable and the Poser community believes that they have been ripped off.

The only ones that bother me are payistes. The rest, meh...

You're right, she has no obligation at all.  

All I meant was, perhaps converting is harder then was first assumed so it seems less likely that everyone is in on it, and that maybe a lot of hair that is very similar to poser meshes really is inspired and similar.

Given that peggy still hasn't worked out how to animate well and avoid gaps, maybe she isn't advanced and ahead of the game with this coversion thing...

HP also said -



If the poser creator themselves cannot tell, then it's quite ambiguous.  I guess what im trying to say in a long convoluted way is - what happened to innocent until proven guilty? It's still speculation and hasn't been proved.

This isn't directed at you, but something you said reminded me; another thing thats funny - understandable, but funny - is how the integrity and rights of the poser artist are defended when a mesh is converted by someone like pegy/ rose...but people don't mind so much about XM sims.  I feel the same way myself really, but when people say their biggest problem is how converters gave no credit (while still saying they don't mind XM sims) whos it's really about paying for something that isn't neccessarily entriely the simmer's own.  :D

Considering how similar all of the aforementioned hairs are to the poser
meshes (including XM sims, of course), and how many similar hairs come out at the same time, I'm not convinced at all that they aren't converted meshes even without definite proof.

Keep in mind that HP (I believe) is using milkshape which, while it is a fairly good cheap 3D program, is a sack of crap compared to higher end programs like 3DS Max or Maya. Things that might seem incredibly difficult in milkshape are likely to be a cinch in Maya (especially if you have a system). And trust me, Peggy, Rose et al, are not using milkshape.

So that's another thing they're doing with people's money--buying Poser meshes!

It's all so lovely.

While I don't doubt that some Poser/et cetera meshes are converted with permission, I can't really believe it unless there's proof that the conversion was done with creator aware of it.

You can contact a poser artist, strike a deal, and ask for the hair do be delivered in format, grouping, layering that you need to convert.
What we did was take hair made ready for poser and then disect them. There is a huge difference.
Poser community is a community where the artist may actually sell and profit from their creation. They'd simply take the highest bidder, and allow them to change and sell their stuff.
Why would they be that interrested in 2 people not willing to shell out hundreds of dollars to be able to convert and sell their stuff, but want to pay maybe 50 bucks and give it out for free? What would you choose?
As far as I know, we never got a reaction from most of the Poser artists we contacted.

So we where stuck on converting free poser hair that was not even made ready for conversion, in Milkshape.

You guys go ahead and do it. Not me.

@ Ginseng: I understand what you are saying about easily saying that the hairs are stolen, so thats why I put same, very similar, quite similar or influence as a 'verdict'. Which, to be honest, is me being very nice as it probably is the same poser hair. And I have found some very odd hair similarities, like VitaSims (it was a free hair so might not post) and also (AND dont get too excited, because I doubt it) one similar to Sshodan's - one of her celestial blossom hairs. Meh

I'm not an expert on poser at all - so please correct me if I'm wrong - but from what I've seen poser hair comes with different add-ons (like left bang, right bang, etc) and not all of these different combinations are pictured. Thats one way to easily tell if a mesh was originally poser (again correct me if I'm wrong), once imported into BodyShop the alpha of the hair is basicly pieces of hair plonked together - not layers. Sorry its hard to describe.

@ redisenchanted: Yep I'd rather leave free sites/creators out of this, I'm going for the paysites. :twisted:  And I've heard mixed things about converting poser content for sims: some say its verrryy hard, whilst others its pretty easy. It probably depends on the software tools you have - which is what Mando said.

@ Mando: thanks for that information. I dont understand meshing so thanks a lot :) I take it that 3DS Max and Maya are better than Milkshape then?...so it would be easier for them to get rid of those lovely neck gaps?

@ Ensign EO: Exactly what I think! And if they do give some credit/have permission, then its only a name not actually saying that they have converted the content.

@ Nouk: sorry, I didnt mean for PoserInitative to be dragged into this. It seems ridiculus to me that paysite creators go to all this trouble to find a poser hair and convert it...then they still have neck gaps and generally look bad. Your hairs are so much better

Captain Jojoba: I take it that 3DS Max and Maya are better than Milkshape then?...so it would be easier for them to get rid of those lovely neck gaps?

Well, Maya and Max are much better, but I think fixing things like neck gaps aren't that difficult in Milkshape either (especially considering the vast numbers of tutorials that use it as the program of choice!)

The neck gaps say to me that the "creators" aren't bothering to even open up the game to see the mesh in action, so things like neck gaps appear due to poor (or no) testing. Like Nouk said, if you have the money you'll get exactly what you need to convert a poser mesh, so if you don't have the patience or skill (or desire) to create something on your own you probably don't really care how it looks in game.

I don't care about XM Sims because their hair is free

I guess I'm blind because many of those hairs marked "Same" do not look at all the same.  I mean, there's a picture of a Poser hair in a ponytail and then a Sim hair in a ponytail.  Other than that, they look nothing alike.  How many different ways can one do a ponytail anyway?

You have to look at the underlying structure, not the texture. What's also confusing is taking into account alpha edits, which can make long ponytail shapes look shorter, because the texture isn't allowed to extend to the end of the potential mesh frame edge.


As for how many ponytails there can be for one game: a googillion. Which is why I've started to be really aggressive about zorching similar hair meshes.

@Nouk: I noticed that most, if not all, of your new hair items are binned, thanks! Should I re-DL old things, assuming that they've been caught and binned? Also, major kudos for, as far as I can tell, keeping polys super low in your work. I *heart* that, a LOT.

That is something that has always bothered me just a little. We fuss at Paysites for stealing but we don't fuss at the free sites for stealing  :? Its stealing either way.

Agree'd.  In terms of quality, yeah, I'm more than likely going to ignore a free site that has shoddy downloads than a paysite charging for shit.  But taking other people's work and slapping your name on it--free site or not, it's not cool.

It's more stealing for the pay sites because they're making money off of Renderosity's work.

Thanks!

Wouldn't download them just yet though, because besides binning, they need to be (re)animated as well. I'll just put up a note at my site when all of that is done. Some I might not do, because I hate some of the hairs now.

Here's something fun I just found:

http://www.greenbriarstudio.com/3D/Mcr2load.htm

So, yes, you are able to convert poser to Maya, and I'm sure this isn't the only plug-in or program of its type. You will still have to clean up polys (obviously) but I'm sure a plug-in like this makes it much easier to use Poser meshes in a seperate 3D modelling program (feels more and more sorry for Nouk and HP trying to do all this in Milkshape).

Isn't it possible at all to do an easy conversion of Poser hair to Sims 2 format?  I once read in a response to a forum that someone had converted a hair for their own use in-game, but that doesn't prove it's "easy".

I do wonder what happened to that hair that Nouk was working on?  http://www.modthesims2.com/showthread.php?t=213024
I was wondering how long it had taken to do that, and if it was still being worked on, etc.  It looked very nice :)

There was also some other thread about someone converting a hair, but it used more technical language than I'm able to process:

http://www.modthesims2.com/showthread.php?t=218739

I don't know what this all means, but some hairs just look way too identical to be solely an "inspiration".

Since I was looking through the Free Mesh Initiative Thread I also found a picture posted by someone, showing "similarities" between an XM Sims hair and a Poser hair.

http://thumbs2.modthesims2.com/images8/MTS2_475246_Infernal_insanity_questionable_xmsims_hair.jpg

*RenegadeSims

I can't say this for sure, but I think you would have to bring them through some other kind of 3D modelling program first, at the very least to get rid of extra polys (Poser hair is made to look good after rendering, meaning that poly counts will probably be stupidly high).

It might be possible to make it straight to a Sims 2 format (I don't know, I haven't tried it), but I have a feeling that the file would either not work properly or would bring your game to a screeching halt.

As for Nouk's poser hair, you might want to go to the Poser initiative page or read her posts here for why that isn't happening.

Theres a gap well i htink there is right at the back ( from looking at the pic.) it might just be free with he got rid of the background

That gap is HUGE - totally disgusting and there's really no excuse for it.  In the game, it just screams at you, that's how obvious it is, so I don't know how on earth he didn't see that.  If he did see it and didn't bother to fix it, that's worse, but I guess it didn't stop 18689 users from downloading, even though you can kind of see the gap in the preview picture.  Of course, in the picture it looks smaller than it really is.  Disgusting.

*RenegadeSims