More Smutty Than You: TSR's Hall of Shame

[Paden]

Enough! Would you please give the woman some time to get some shit ironed out before you hang her in effigy?! Let her get up to speed before you land on her neck with hob-nailed boots, for Christ's sake! Is she threatening to go pay?! NO! Is she saying that we're a bunch of assholes that have no right to exist?! NO! Is she saying that pirates are not welcome at all?! NO! Is she saying that she's going to take care of the shit that went wrong? YES, she is! Is she gonna tell you why she was away for so long? No, she isn't because it's not our place to know what happened in real life! Are people like mods that stepped out of bounds and tried to take over going to be handed their nether parts for being pricks? YES! Things aren't going to change over night, but Jesus H. Fucking Christ, there are other issues here to be paid attention to other than a site's policies!!!

There are issues like Securom that need to be dealt with! How bout we just leave the trivial things alone for a bit and band together to fight the motherfuckers that are trying to take over our systems with a program that we don't want near us!? There are other things to be fought, like the way these bastards think we're gonna take them fucking up our computers with what is basically malware! Did you know that the new Securom is basically going to tell you what kind of hardware and software you can have for the machine to function? Were you aware that this program is going to reach into all areas of your computer, from the BIOS up?! And that it will also infiltrate your Operating System? Do you want to waste your time and energy on a website that you can now get to freely when there is a game manufacturing company that is trying to play Big Brother straight out of Orwell's 1984?!

Take your outrage and indignation and use it to accomplish something against the motherfuckers that are going to try and control your every action upon your own property! Get passionate with them, instead of someone that has come back after a long time away due to health issues she had no control over. She's trying to set right the mistakes that were made and if you keep hammering at her, the whole site could go to hell and rob creators like Warlokk a home to post their wonderful meshes. I know some of you adore some of the stuff there, do you really want it gone? She is the owner of a FREE site, and I thought we left those alone.

Delphy can take all the time off in the world and when he comes back, people fall all over themselves to welcome him back. Does that work only for him? Kind of silly, if you ask me. That site has done a lot of good and can continue to do so if you just pull back and let her straighten shit out. Did any of you notice that she is a supporter of Simmers Against Securom? If you did, did any of you by chance check it out for yourselves? Maybe you ought to throw your support behind that site and their mission, as well as the mission of this site. E A games has screwed us all and is planning to continue to do it. Why don't we just hand them their balls on a platter instead of tearing down a free site owner before she has even a chance to straighten shit out...

[Redikolous]

I usually would be inclined to agree with you Paden, but she pretty much just said the same thing Sim_Outlaw said.  "EA has not done anything against paysites, blah blah blah."  I understand how the pay/free debate can be dragging, but still, that doesn't mean ban file-sharing links on the site outright.  Not all paysite owners are bad and have screwed up the community.  I would say that it's people who want to throw filesharers under the rug have helped screw up the community.

And Insim going anti-fileshare is big.  Insim is big, a lot of people are there, and it's important to have a big site be actually neutral.

I'm not trying to make Kathy feel bad, I just want her to know that neutral does not mean anti-fileshare, and that we have done a lot of things.  We've changed community tone.

[calalily]

In regards to my post on the adult site... how about trying to read the garbage that was posted that fueled my disgust? 

Yeah, if I hadn't read the drama, I would not have known. Nebulous Threats FTW! 

Is she saying that pirates are not welcome at all?!

With her kind of "neutrality", that is loud and clear. 

There are issues like Securom that need to be dealt with! How bout we just leave the trivial things alone for a bit and band together to fight the motherfuckers that are trying to take over our systems with a program that we don't want near us!?

How about some of us are quite involved with this, and still able to chat about other things.

She is the owner of a FREE site, and I thought we left those alone.

You're not getting it - she came here, where we were talking about this - we talked about how most of us were going to vote for Inbeatz in the Sim2Cri Finds vote because it allowed links to PMBD; we talked about the acceptance of many freesites to the information on TSR smut in this very thread, and their lack of allowing links to PMBD. Unless you'd like to declare that an attack on freesite owners, same goes for kathy - who posted right here in this very thread. 

Being a freesite owner *does not* entitle you to be worshipped as a God, no matter what you say - unless you'd like to be called out for trying to tell me off - you know, as a God.  We're not attacking her site. I'm saying I haven't felt welcome there in a long time, and this looks to be "brand new site, same as the old site" - and that means I'm *still* not feeling welcome there, and no doubt never will. I'm not going the content, or anything else - I've left all that stuff alone.  I didn't even go to her site and say this - and never have.  I said it here, where it can't be deleted, except by me, and where there won't be a dogpile of people telling me off because I don't agree.

Ultimately, she can and will do what she wants - but I think here on PMBD I should be able to say what I think "neutrality" means on Insim.

Delphy can take all the time off in the world and when he comes back, people fall all over themselves to welcome him back.

Not me.

[Anouk]

Well, I agree, it's not neutrality at all.
But at this point in time and with the info I have I don't think she'll feel inclined to favour anyone that tries to pull her jacket. Trust me, she has alot of shit to work out, there's alot of people trying to get her attention, she needs to set alot of things straight because others have left a giant mess.

[Redikolous]

I am certainly willing to wait until she sorts things out before I go crazy on Insim (I don't think I've gone crazy yet, but *shrug).  I won't bug her about the "neutrality."  I just don't know why she posted what she did here. 

[SnarkyShark]

What has been accomplished since this site and others similar have been opened? Not a damn thing. EA hasn't taken any steps towards killing paysites and with their silence they have said they approve.

Remember the old days when sharing was a dirty word in the Sims community (and probably the only gaming community where it was)?  Now, in no small part because of PMBD, the pay/free debate is now pretty much out in the open despite some efforts to to sweep it back under the rug. And the only thing EA seems concerned about is convincing the masses that SecuRom is harmless.

Maybe you cannot see the difference this site has made, but I'm pretty certain Thomas's accountant has. Also, since I stopped subscribing to paysites I've been able to donate to several free sites. Yours for instance. There's one small accomplishment for you. - 

[glasscigarette]

Is she saying that pirates are not welcome at all?! NO! Is she saying that she's going to take care of the shit that went wrong? YES, she is! Is she gonna tell you why she was away for so long? No, she isn't because it's not our place to know what happened in real life!

First of all, nobody is asking her to explain her absence, at least that I've noticed. She has a real life outside of the game and the community, and I am the last person to begrudge her that. Her health is more important than any game or any group of gamers, no matter how obsessive they may be. Quite frankly, even if she had taken time off just because she wanted to, not because she needed to, that's her right. I'm sure there are plenty of people here who feel the same way.

It's the whole "neutrality" idea that sticks in my craw. As for the whole idea of making pirates unwelcome...well, I think the false claim of neutrality does that on its own. You don't have to be actively pro-paysite/anti-pirate to make an entire segment of the community feel unwelcome. Actions against over-zealous mods like BBB are all well and good, and a great step in the right direction, but allowing links to paysites while not allowing links to file-sharing sites is one of those insidious, silent little actions that make your position clear. As I said before, it's an implicit sort of acceptance, and I don't feel that we should have to let that sort of behavior go unmentioned just because her site is free, and well-loved by many.

Take your outrage and indignation and use it to accomplish something against the motherfuckers that are going to try and control your every action upon your own property! Get passionate with them, instead of someone that has come back after a long time away due to health issues she had no control over. She's trying to set right the mistakes that were made and if you keep hammering at her, the whole site could go to hell and rob creators like Warlokk a home to post their wonderful meshes. I know some of you adore some of the stuff there, do you really want it gone? She is the owner of a FREE site, and I thought we left those alone.

There are plenty of people here that are involved in the fight against SecuROM and other indignities perpetrated by EA, who are also reacting less than favorably to Kathy's announcement. We have the right to have opinions regarding more than one issue. And honestly, I'm not all that passionate about the whole InSim thing, but I resent being told that I shouldn't voice my opinions. I'm glad Kathy's back, and I hope that she can get the site back to a more pleasant atmosphere. I wish her all the best, and I don't intend to slam her. I do, however, have every right to say what I think on the whole "neutrality" thing, and I'm not planning on listening to anyone who tells me that I don't, especially since I'm making those comments on a site other than the one in question.

It's true that we do not seek to attack or destroy freesites, because that flies in the face of our entire mission. We do, however, have the right to point out behaviors on freesites that indicate a clear-cut approval of paysites, because they can be as damaging (or even more so) than some of the paysites out there. If she wants to be neutral, then she needs to be truly neutral. I have absolutely no problem with that because it is her right to maintain a sense of calm on her site, and it seems like there are at least a few other people here agree with me. Most of us would hate to see InSim go down. Yes, InSim is free, and no, I have no desire to see it crumble. I won't do anything to facilitate such a process. I will, however, critique the attitudes and behaviors espoused there, whether or not they are free, if I find something objectionable about them. If MTS2 put up a banner tomorrow that said, "Pirates are Criminals," do you really think that everyone here would stay silent, just because MTS2 is free? I seriously doubt that. Most of us would be considerably angrier than when a paysite says the same thing, because there is an associated sense of betrayal.

Did any of you notice that she is a supporter of Simmers Against Securom?

Well, I applaud her for that. That's a wonderful thing, and a step that all fansites ought to take. But doing something good doesn't excuse the rest of your less savory actions from being observed and discussed by others.

And Insim going anti-fileshare is big.  Insim is big, a lot of people are there, and it's important to have a big site be actually neutral.

I'm not trying to make Kathy feel bad, I just want her to know that neutral does not mean anti-fileshare, and that we have done a lot of things.  We've changed community tone.

Redi's right. A site as big as InSim is going to have a relatively large impact on the more casual Sims community, including the people who aren't as likely to find their way over here. And if it's not neutral, at least stop pretending to be.

Yeah, I'm also a little tired of the whole idea that we will inherently fail in our goal. Paysites have always been around, and EA seems no closer than they ever have been to taking a stand against them, despite the EULA. But we have made enormous strides in educating the community, making the debate more visible to even casual players, putting a little heat on some of the biggest paysites like TSR, and the list goes on. Perhaps it's true that we will never be ultimately successful in eliminating paysites. But if everyone professes silence on the issue, stops people from discussing the topic openly, and bans links to applicable sites on only one side of the debate...well, that pretty much makes it a self-fullfilling prophecy, does it not?

Being a freesite owner *does not* entitle you to be worshipped as a God, no matter what you say - unless you'd like to be called out for trying to tell me off - you know, as a God.  We're not attacking her site. I'm saying I haven't felt welcome there in a long time, and this looks to be "brand new site, same as the old site" - and that means I'm *still* not feeling welcome there, and no doubt never will....

Ultimately, she can and will do what she wants - but I think here on PMBD I should be able to say what I think "neutrality" means on Insim.

/golfclap

[kathy]

Ok a couple things I will address briefly..

First off where are you getting we are pro-paysite? I am pro noone. I hate everyone equally last time I checked. Seriously.. some things are being ironed out as I am trying to pick the best approach that makes everyone feel welcome. Not just one side or the other because in all honesty I care nothing about the issue at hand. I have never supported the paysite movement and have been known to bash them many, many times in the past but I do not have the energy or desire to "hate" them any longer. My main issue is drama and my desire to seperate myself from it as much as possible. My life has been filled with enough drama since the passing of someone very dear to me and it forced me to put a lot of things into perspective. Any choices I make have to be ones that leave me as little stress as possible.

Also regarding my timing.. I procrastinate.. it is what I do and I do it quite well. Eric's schedule and my personal problems is the reason why it took him this long to get it updated and quite honestly when he is working 13 hours a day, 6 days a week the last thing I wanted him to do was work on some mod. Call me selfish like that but if he has only one day off I expect him to spend it with me. Now if someone would like to pay his salary for a week, watch our daughters and deal with my needy ass all week then hey please step in and he will have more time to screw with it if not give him a break. He doesn't have the luxary of having that much free time and what little time that he does have he likes to sleep.

Anyways I am back but I won't dare live on the site as I once did. I value my sanity too much for that. The only thing I ask is that people are patient while I continue to figure out wtf went on and give me time to deal with matters as they arise. If anyone has any information that they feel would be beneficial for me to know they can feel free to contact me on the site so that I can deal with it.

[glasscigarette]

First off where are you getting we are pro-paysite? I am pro noone. I hate everyone equally last time I checked. Seriously.. some things are being ironed out as I am trying to pick the best approach that makes everyone feel welcome. Not just one side or the other because in all honesty I care nothing about the issue at hand. I have never supported the paysite movement and have been known to bash them many, many times in the past but I do not have the energy or desire to "hate" them any longer. My main issue is drama and my desire to seperate myself from it as much as possible. My life has been filled with enough drama since the passing of someone very dear to me and it forced me to put a lot of things into perspective. Any choices I make have to be ones that leave me as little stress as possible.

I had read that you would be allowing links to paysites, but that any mention of PMBD and associated sites would result in a ban. If this is not accurate, they I will gladly rescind me comments, but if it is the case, then it is an example of false neutrality, and I simply object to the use of the term "neutral." Please, let me know if I have been misinformed, because I would much rather make my decisions based on fact rather than rumor.

And as for not having the energy or desire to keep up the fight, I can certainly respect that. You have every right to cease any behavior that you no longer feel passionate about, especially if RL issues have changed your worldview. I don't entirely appreciate you telling us that our efforts are in vain, however. Don't get me wrong, you have every right to believe that, say that, shout it from the rooftops, whatever. But, some of us are a little sensitive about being told that the pirate movement is ineffective, and some people will undoubtedly respond. I hope our reactions didn't offend you, but we are going to have them.

Also regarding my timing.. I procrastinate.. it is what I do and I do it quite well. Eric's schedule and my personal problems is the reason why it took him this long to get it updated and quite honestly when he is working 13 hours a day, 6 days a week the last thing I wanted him to do was work on some mod. Call me selfish like that but if he has only one day off I expect him to spend it with me. Now if someone would like to pay his salary for a week, watch our daughters and deal with my needy ass all week then hey please step in and he will have more time to screw with it if not give him a break. He doesn't have the luxary of having that much free time and what little time that he does have he likes to sleep.

Maybe others feel differently, as I can't speak for them, but I have absolutely no beef with you for taking time out from the Simming community to deal with whatever you want to deal with. Like I said before, you have to have priorities, and quite frankly, I would understand if you wanted to take a year off to sit in a bubble bath. I know that's not the case, but I really don't care what your motivations are. They are your own. I'm truly sorry if people have given you a hard time about it.

Anyways I am back but I won't dare live on the site as I once did. I value my sanity too much for that. The only thing I ask is that people are patient while I continue to figure out wtf went on and give me time to deal with matters as they arise. If anyone has any information that they feel would be beneficial for me to know they can feel free to contact me on the site so that I can deal with it.

And good luck with that. I sincerely hope that you didn't take anything I said here as a personal attack. I have no problem with you personally, even if I don't entirely agree with your decision to go neutral (or with the use of the term, when I don't see the stance as truly neutral at all). I hope you are able to get things back to a certain degree of sanity on the site with relatively little trouble.

[Redikolous]

Nope file sharing links are not allowed as it would mean drama and I happen to be anti-drama. Again what you send in private messages is your own business but this site is not a platform to push either agenda. The web section is a section where everyone was supposed to be able to promote their site and is by no means an endorsement by Eric or myself.

That's where we got anti-paysite.

I won't talk about Insim right now, I'm more wanting to know what you meant by this:

And linkage... bottom line I don't care what you guys post in private messages but on the site the links will not be allowed. This is for my own sanity and noone elses. This is one of the reasons why I needed a break, because people don't know when to let it drop. What has been accomplished since this site and others similar have been opened? Not a damn thing. EA hasn't taken any steps towards killing paysites and with their silence they have said they approve. Like them or not they will always be around in one form or another and will continue as long as someone is willing to purchase their product. The fate of the Sims 2 Web section has yet to be determined but things aren't looking very positive for that area and most likely will be removed unless someoe can give a sound reason as to why it shouldn't be.

And why you would post that here, where we fight against paysites.

[Jojoba]

I will talk about your so-called "neutrality."  First of all, as Quinctia pointed out, you could have neutrality.  You could do what MTS2 does, and not allow pay content. 

MTS2 has not implemented a neutral policy..it's pro free, anti pay. If Kathy wishes to enforce true neutrality, then it is one that allows links to freesites, paysites, and file sharing sites: that causes conflict and arguments, which is what she does not want..so I see the difficulty in all this.

Even though Paden (and congratulations on your new moderator position at Insim..) has stated it much erm more passionately then I would, I agree with her. But people have their right to ask questions, and naturally they do. I have already spoken to Kathy on msn and so have no more as they've all been answered. I just wish that the site would return to how nice it was to be in before - and of recent times, I, and many others, have been feeling more and more unwelcome...both the main Insim site and InsimAdult have turned nasty whilst she has been gone, I do hope it gets back to being fun again.

[glasscigarette]

If Kathy wishes to enforce true neutrality, then it is one that allows links to freesites, paysites, and file sharing sites: that causes conflict and arguments, which is what she does not want..so I see the difficulty in all this.

And I can totally respect that difficulty. I do however, think it's important to acknowledge this on the site itself rather than claiming neutrality where it only exists half-way.

But, I have no desire to see Insim crash and burn. It's a free site with some good content, and deserves our respect for that. I may not be a fan of the atmosphere, but that is a personal thing. That is why I, like Cala, will not be making any sort of disparaging comments on Insim, but I do not feel that I should have to keep my opinions to myself here.

[kathy]

As I stated above everything isn't set in stone as of yet. Prior to my posting I was already discussing going a certain route and will be finalized by tomorrow night to give everyone on the staff an oppurtunity to give their input. The only reason I posted in this thread is because someone suggested I do so otherwise I wouldn't have seen it.

And no I didn't view it as an attack I'm feeling a little under the weather today so I'm kind of off my game.. not that Im on it any other time.

Jojo... that is my goal. The main site should be an easy enough fix once I get a handle on everything. The adult... that is a whole other ball of wax. I never cared for that site because of the topics so I am not positive what the previous atmosphere was there so they only thing I can do is attempt to weed out the ones I view as trouble makers and ask people to tell me wtf went on.

[Mi-Chii]

Kathy, I have a question.

It's not allowed to post links to filesharing-sites. Often in the WCIF forums on insim I see items from Garden of Shadows popping ut. Do we then have to PM them with the link? Does this go for other file-share-friendly sites too, or just the BIG filesharing sites like the booty?

Im not asking to be mean and discussing, just wondering.

[Jojoba]

Yea I wish you luck with sorting the adult site :/ From what I gather, its gone very bad over there. (to be honest I don't even want to know the rest of the drama that has gone on there..the parts I do know just aren't nice)

As far as the main site goes..I do hope you get it running smoothly again. I do commend some of the moderators who have been managing it and keeping the community going - they've been trying very hard but it had got to the point a couple of months back where basically they needed you back. Am very pleased to see you back Very.

With the paysite and free site debate..I understand you not wanting to have it an issue, have known thats your stance on it within the site for a long time.. regardless of your own personal views on it. If you wish to have true neutrality then allow all links though.

And am curious as to the answer to Mi Chii's question as well (*waves to Michelle*). Garden Of Shadows is primarly a download forum, but has file sharing on it. So would we be allowed to link to it or not? I have linked to it previously and have been told not to, so I presume it is allowed