TSR: In Ur Accounts, Deletin Ur Stuffs!

[Missbonbon]

If this is true, I trust the fact that when TSR makes their statement, if it varies vastly from the knowledge you were told, you would be willing to share it yes? If not, then I don't see the point in dangling in front of us that you know information which deviates from Coconut's information.

I am sorry, I know it's irritating, but I have a personal policy not to divulge contents of private chats, so I have tried to give the information I can while stopping short of any detail that would identify the person who confided in me or the individuals involved.  I don't want to make unnecessary complications for anyone.  I just want to give whatever is necessary to stop everyone wasting their energy running off at the wrong angle.   If and when I find out I have been lied to, I will be very annoyed and have to apologise here.  Otherwise everyone will be told anyway, when and if the event comes to pass.

Fair enough. I can understand the want to protect your source.

I don't see the point for people to not continue updates on their tools they have provided, other than they just lost interest, or really just can't do it anymore.

For an example, in Peter's case he's not interested in Sims and would rather be programming drumming sequencers.  "lost interest" is irrelevant, as he has already shown he is willing to do work he never had an interest in, as a gift to the simming community.   Should the need arise, he can force himself to do so again.

Again, fair enough.  I don't really follow Peter's life details that closely, so the "not interested in sims" had escaped me. Thank you for pointing that out. But like I said, I would completely understand if Peter decided he really didn't want to update his tools anymore due to lack of interest.

Not to mention I am rather curious about this open source. Mainly because, wouldn't someone that had the programming knowledge have already tweaked s3oc by now? Unless it's just that fact that we know to little at this point.

Most of the free community tools are open source:

https://sourceforge.net/projects/s3pi/
https://sourceforge.net/projects/sims3tools/
http://code.google.com/p/madscientistproductions
https://sourceforge.net/projects/postal-sims3

There are two main issues though;
1 - There are only a dozen or so programmers in the sims community with enough of an interest to actually work on tools, and
2 - Just because people *can* doesn't mean they *do*.

Oh I figured that must have been it. Hence my reply to ShanOw.

I am more curious as to how many people we have in the community that have that knowledge, that would be willing to step to the plate when need be, and would be willing to tweak or completely overhaul a program if need be. I'm sure the amount of people that can accomplish the task will grow, but will the motivation to do so grow as well?

I do know that the Postal source has been used in at least two other tools which I had nothing to do with. Neither project looks anything like Postal though, so unless you read the fine print you wouldn't know. So open source on sims tools does actually work.

I figured it was because of lack of interest in taking up the responsibilty of not only coding these programs, but keeping them up to date, and making sure they are functional. I never thought that the open source didn't work, I was more or less curious as to if the code had been taken and reproduced in other instances. Since you just clarified that it has, then it just shows that my curiousness was rewarded. 

[Quorneater]

Looks like TSR did fix their rule about linking to MTS - See this thread: http://forums.thesimsresource.com/showthread.php?t=375039

[minionsRmine]

TSR will keep all their tools free. Not because they don't want your monies, but because they want all the accolades and want to appear to be sacrificial and giving. How anyone could align themselves with hackers, cheats, people whose ideals include profiting on someone's terminal illness, folks who share personal details of site users, and idiots who build second homes and live lavishly while actively breaking EAs EULA is just beyond my wildest understanding. Smooth talking will get con artists everywhere. Not talking to them is the best idea. I don't care if they are in the "community".

Would I go up to a person who's committed crimes in real life and strike a business deal with them? No. Why not? Uhhh, if I have to answer that, I think someone's got some marbles missing.

As an added bonus, I'd like to thank all the free creators of TS2 tools. CEP, SimPE, Sims2CleanInstaller, et. al. I tip my hat to you all, and I'm thankful to have had your tools to use.

There's no way in hell I'd ever use TSR's tools. They can kiss my shiny white butt, but it is not happening. Pigs can fly, hell can freeze over, but minions will not hearken TSR's door ever again.

[CatOfWar]

Inge - I know you have criticized and pressured Thomas at MTS, and I'm glad you've done it in private chat as well.  I've never doubted that, nor your contributions to the community.  What I was asking you to do is criticize / pressure him in *public*, for example, in that workshop first objects thread at TSR.  I realize it is polite to reserve criticism for private chat, but this is Thomas, an unethical scumbag who *deserves* public shaming.  It can be done in a perfectly civil manner, not asking you to be rude.  Why not say in public that TSR outsourced the work, let's thank the contractors?  You *can* promote a tool you approve of while simultaneously giving people the whole picture of how it really got made and what kind of company is offering it.

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edit

It could be that you have a Sims 2 site you wish to close

Well, at least they're honest.  Close your free site, take a few dollars from us!  They left out help Thomas live a life of luxury.

[dstar]

Inge,I personally do boycott content made with S3W on my finds site. You will rarely find updates from sites such as SimsCri, SimsControl, Parsimonious, Simenapule or other sites that choose to use S3W. There are plenty of content creators out there that are using Wes, Petes and your tools, and Delphy's tools over S3W.

   While it may be easier to use many creators simply refused to use it based on principal- one right does not make up for the hundreds of wrongs that TSR has committed against the community. Merely making a new shiny tool and allowing MTS to be mentioned on TSR is not going to make up for legal threats with no base,  alleged site hackings, and alleged malicious coding in content and programs, denigrating and disrespecting members of the free community constantly, theft of other creators work, use of other creators (free and pay) content both in terms of meshes and pictures, without credit, or permission, or without any attention to the TOU's of said creators that state absolutely no paysites,  alleged malicious threats of violence over the internet from some FA's, lack of quality control for SA and FA submissions, going against EA"s EULA, and continuing to employ thieves.

     Sorry, I also don't use items made by General Electric because the turned my hometown into a International Superfund Site due to PCB contamination, or buy products from companies that use child labor from Third World countries for the very same reason- they espouse and promote unethical business practices and make a habit of treating people like shit.
  TSR would have to do one hell of a lot to change their attitudes and behavior and those of their FA's and Executives (cause they are business not a Sims community- Businesses have executives- communities have leaders like Pescado or Delphy). For instance here is a list of what TSR could do to get me to use their tool-FIRE SHAKESHAFT, GO FREE, turn Atwa in to the legal authorities rather than condoning the illegal acts she  allegedly commits e.g. hacking, threatening emails. stop whining about filesharing cause EA says it's ok now mkay, have every single FA and SA who has used a creators content without permission, credit, or who has violated a creators TOU to write letters of apology to the victims,  and pay out of pocket for the creators/modders/community members whose sites have been hacked or whose computers have gotten viruses from TSR content,. programs or site advertising to repair their sites, or computers.

 Finally, Thomas, Johan and Steve would have to issue a public apology to the Sims Community for taking advantage of us and treating the community as a whole like shit over the years. It is one thing for EA to do that by releasing faulty borked crap, and providing no customer support but no matter how many asses they kiss TSR is not EA!
 

  I and many other creators refuse to use S3W because it is associated with a Business that utilizes unethical business practices to take advantage of and abuse members of the Sims community- free and pay Personally, other than houses and premade Sims I am not creating for TS3 at all for one main reason, I refuse to be forced to use any product created by or associated with in any way to TSR. I will continue to use the free tools created by the free community or by more ethical members of the pay community to create for TS2. Since none of the things that TSR could do to balance out their lying, thieving, cyber bullying actions is ever likely to happen it is not likely that I would ever use their tool or support creators who choose to do so.

[Quorneater]

But we all made our tools on the back of someone else.  Peter couldn't have written his tools without the hard work of Rick and Karybdis, and also Delphy helped with bits.   A couple of people were helped by some info from TSR - I saw it happen in chat.  Delphy has had to ask Tiger and Rick for help with compression, and so did Peter.   Peter has helped Delphy with some stuff. So on and so on.

TSR initially named the poeple who have been helping them like this, and I believe those names are still buried in an old news article somewhere.  They don't name their paid programmers but they may be on a staff list somewhere.

As far as ethics in general go, Thomas and Steve have their own karma to deal with.   I don't feel I have any obligation to help them realise their karma by spoiling my own fun or that of other perfectly innocent creators.

[dstar]

I don't have an issue with TSR's programmers Inge- just their executives like Thomas, Johan and Steve. There is a difference between assisting each other within the community and abusing the community, and TSR's Executives crossed that line awhile ago. Yes their programmers are helping you, and the others  learn and grow as programmers and modders just as you are helping them- they are pretty much innocent employees doing their jobs and they as well as most of TSR's FA"s (other than the getting paid for content issue), SA's and creative contributors. The problem with TSR other than being a paysite is that their executives  like are fostering an environment that condones and encourages unethical and illegal behaviors.

  If Schtinky, or Sandy at ATS, had asked for help with tool development it would probably be a non-issue here. Other than their choice to remain pay they are very ethical and have done nothing to damage the community as a whole. TSR's actions victimize people on both sides of the pay vs free debate- the free community because they take advantage of our knowledge, steal our content, allegedly hack our sites, make threatening emails, and include malware in their site ads, content and programs, and the pay community because they tout themselves as Representatives of the Pay Community but their actions make all paysites look like the ultimate evil and make all paysites look like immoral, unethical scumbags- leaving otherwise good people like Sandy, and Schtinky caught in the crossfire. Rather like people often judge all freesites based on what they find at MTS, MATY, or PMBD.

  I know you do this because you enjoy this and want to contribute to the community as a whole, as does Pete as does Delphy, as does WesH, but for every one positive thing you are doing to build bridges and stop the divisions in the community from destroying people's enjoying the game- TSR's execs (not the creators for the most part, or the programmers) are doing 5, or 10, or 15 things that victimize the community- free and pay, and that continue to foster further divisions and that prevent people from having fun with creating, modding, or simply playing the games. This is why I won't use S3W. It may be a good tool, it may be an easy to use tool just like GE light bulbs are high quality but just like GE's light bulbs I refuse to use products created and promoted by unethical businesses.

[CatOfWar]

As far as ethics in general go, Thomas and Steve have their own karma to deal with.   I don't feel I have any obligation to help them realise their karma by spoiling my own fun or that of other perfectly innocent creators.

While I believe there is no reward and punishment other than what we enact ourselves, I won't argue about religious belief. 

However, is it such a big change to go from criticism of Thomas at MTS to criticism of Thomas on his own site?  Why would public criticism spoil anyone's fun?  The same creators are at the MTS and TSR Workshop threads, do you think you've spoiled their fun at MTS?  Does constructive criticism of creator's work spoil their fun?  Does public criticism of EA spoil my enjoyment of EA games? 

Your private chat criticism has been effective in some instances only because Thomas needs something from you and the other free community tool developers.  Note that Thomas also sometimes makes changes when his wrongdoing is brought to the public's attention because he stands to lose public support.  For the vast majority of people, public support is the only leverage we have with TSR because most of us, unlike you, are not people Thomas needs something from.  That is why I request that when you criticise Thomas (which you already do), please do it publicly.  Don't help an unethical man look good to the public, thus improving his profits, by praising something he did publicly and only criticising privately.

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And dstar, have some rum.

[Quorneater]

It was publicly.  Anyone can come into that chat room if they want to.  There were a few people there.

Listen, I am playing Sims for my own pleasure.  I have spent a lot of money on it and I am entitled to play it and download as suits me best.  When and if an opportunity turns up for me to speak my mind and I can do it without any extra effort or expense on my part, then I do.  I am certainly not going to be told how and where I should speak to people in my own leisure time.

[CatOfWar]

Inge - It's not my intention to anger you.  Note that I have said "request" and "please", thus I'm asking you, not telling you.  Disagreement is not disrespect.  While the creator chatroom was public in the sense that anyone could join, which do you think gets more views from the public, the Workshop: Objects announcement thread on the front page of TSR, or that chat room?  You are of course free to do as you please, but I have as much right as you to speak my mind.  Since angering you is pointless and not something I want to do, I'll drop the matter.

[Quorneater]

It's against the rules to post like that in the TSR news blogs, and anyone who has tried it gets their post deleted.  I've had posts deleted there too.   At least in chat he listened and responded.

[CatOfWar]

It's against the rules to post like that in the TSR news blogs, and anyone who has tried it gets their post deleted.  I've had posts deleted there too.

I was unaware you had done so (thank you), now I know.

I haven't seen official rules forbidding such posts, although TSR is infamous for deleting criticism.  Not arguing, not telling anyone what / where to post, just asking about TSR's rules at this point for my own edification, that's all.  The rules blurb at the bottom of the news story forbids "insulting" and "flaming" and the Terms of Use, in the section titled Use of Chat Rooms, Forums and Other Interactive Areas, forbid stuff that's "defamatory" and "inflammatory".  Politely worded criticism and questions are none of those things.  I'm not debating the merits of posts doomed to deletion.  Just saying that to the best of my limited knowledge, such posts do not violate TSR's rules.  TSR simply deletes them because they might hurt TSR's bottom line.

edit: sentence order

[kenmtl]

Thomas's new community friendly M.O. is just a load of crap. I'm sorry but, just no. It's not ever going happen. They're trying to get the jump on this release because it's good business plan. Trying to ingratiate themselves into the community is a good business plan. We have no idea what their long term goals are but I think it's a pretty safe bet that no altruism is involved. They want to dominate this market and quite frankly they're off to good start. I think that's what worries me the most.

Inge I get what you're saying about a tool being tool and if the community can benefit from it then why not. Ya you're right, it's a piece of coding, fair enough. Aside from the ethical issues that the others mentioned and which are absolutely valid, I think my fear is that development of alternative resources is going to petter off and we're going to left without an alternative at all. That kind of development work entails an effort and responsibility that we don't have the right to assign to anyone. Not you or Peter or Pes or Delphy or WesH or Echo or Mootilda or TJ or JFade or anyone else involved. We all appreciate enormously and benefit greatly from the work you guys do. I think some of us are feeling a bit edgy at the moment because we feel we might be losing this one. We absolutely do not want TSR to actually become THE sims resource and maybe seeing you guys cooperating with them, even with the best of intentions, is interpreted as helping them to realize that goal. Right now they need you guys but what happens when they don't. What happens if they get so far ahead of the game that they can start calling the shots. That's what they want, make no mistake about it. You guys do a lot for us and we've come to rely on you. It's not right but that's just kinda how it is, so I think that motivates some of the less than stellar reactions when we hear you say it's just a tool so lets just use it. We don't want to be beholden to them for any reason, ever. At the end of the day this is just a game so we'll deal with whatever happens. But like I said some of us are just a bit edgy at the moment. We're sort of looking down the road and wondering what's gonna happen.

Personally I don't think you have any responsibility to do anything except exactly what you feel like doing. I ain't paying you shit so I don't get to ask for anything. I really do appreciate everything you do for us. As do we all.

[Paden]

I've said this about people working with TSR, and I think it bears repeating: Lay down with dogs and get up covered with fleas. People are going to look at you like they do TSR and count you guilty by association. It's like a teen-ager that hangs out with stoners and thieves. Cops and other adults begin to look at them like they're doing the same thing and harass them due to the company they keep.

Doesn't anyone remember their parents telling them that they are judged by the company they keep? Well, I sure in the hell do and act accordingly. If you don't want to be thought of as a thief/scumbag/dickhead/asshole/fuckface, then don't hang out with people that are and don't help them develop shit. Otherwise, you're going to have to develop an alibi the next time they get caught with their pants down taking a piss in the community talent pool.

They've been caught more than once doing the nasty, so why in the HELL do folks still trust them? They don't even give you the respect due to you as human beings because they talk shit about you behind your back while grabbing all the help they can from you with both hands. Inge, you and the rest are talented people that I respect quite a bit, but dammit, you're being used like a piece of toilet paper and I don't like to see that. However, you are an adult and can make your own decisions and I respect that. I don't, however, have to like what's being done to the community by TSR in their race to close out the competition.

Ooops, channeled a Fish Called Wanda, sorry bout that!

[minionsRmine]

Exactly my thoughts, Paden. I just don't see how others don't see it that way.