Poser Content

[Ginseng]

Thanks for posting all the links and pictures, some of them may have been seen before but its very interesting and convenient to have them all in one place and not over about 100 pages lol.

What I did wonder at was how quickly some people pointed the finger and accused sims 2 creators of theft, then tried themselves and found that it would be much simpler to make the mesh for scratch, and that it couldnt relaly be done easily at all.

See here

http://www.modthesims2.com/forumdisplay.php?f=490

especially here

http://www.modthesims2.com/showthread.php?t=216022


but the accusations against xm, peggy rose etc haven't been retracted.

Now Im not saying none of them were converted or ripped off. However, unless they are completely identical, very simple meshes, eg. Diva 'by' Thomas, which is obviously totally the same, I think that it is not certain they were converted from poser at all, with or without permission. Especially for the more wispy, complicated hair. Lots of the styles seem to be heavily inspired by the poser styles they resemble, and it might not be morally right to copy so blatantly, but if your a greedy payste owner who has to create hair every week or two like a factory production line, then your going to run out of ideas and turn to similar things for inspiration.

Theres no doubt peggy & rose can mesh for themselves, for example styles based on celebrities etc. Perhaps they too found it easier as HP said to make a similar mesh from scratch than try to convert meshes that were stolen. they must have known it would get them into trouble anyway....

The combination of alien mapping, high poly, crunchy reduction, and completely incompatible layering makes most Poser meshes I've looked at simply not viable for conversion.

The amount of time it takes for me to clean up a Poser mesh into anything even remotely useful is about twice as long as it would take for me to make a completely new, original hair from scratch...

Just my ideas. feel free to disagree, but I was wondering if anyone else had noticed this...almost duplicity/ hypocrsiy, not from HP necessarily, but from everyone who insists that all hairs with even the tiniest similarity is stolen, and ignores HP's post about 'feasibility' of converting poser meshes.


ETA- yay Johnny Depp icons  

[redisenchanted]

I'm not convinced by HP's comments. That proves nothing really. I don't think that she has any obligation at all if she'd rather come up with her own meshes, so I'm not criticizing her. Just because she didn't sort out how to do it doesn't mean that no one has. I think that Pegy has figured out how to do it quickly and easilly, but isn't willing to share how.

The similarities are undeniable and the Poser community believes that they have been ripped off.

The only ones that bother me are payistes. The rest, meh...

[Ginseng]

You're right, she has no obligation at all.  

All I meant was, perhaps converting is harder then was first assumed so it seems less likely that everyone is in on it, and that maybe a lot of hair that is very similar to poser meshes really is inspired and similar.

Given that peggy still hasn't worked out how to animate well and avoid gaps, maybe she isn't advanced and ahead of the game with this coversion thing...

HP also said -

I have spoken with a Poser artist whose work has been suspected stolen by all three of the main accused: Peggy, Rose, and XM Sims, and the two that she could look at, she said were not direct thefts - the mesh parts and textures were not derived from hers. It is pretty clear from the sheer number of parallels with certain sites and popular Poser hairstyles that these sites' creators are being... at the least inspired by the Poser work. The line of what is inspiration and what is crossing the line into copying someone else's creation is a very fuzzy one. A large amount of the meshes on those sites do bear a striking resemblance to popular Poser portfolios - whether they cross that fuzzy line and whether some are actual outright thefts still remains unknown

If the poser creator themselves cannot tell, then it's quite ambiguous.  I guess what im trying to say in a long convoluted way is - what happened to innocent until proven guilty? It's still speculation and hasn't been proved.

This isn't directed at you, but something you said reminded me; another thing thats funny - understandable, but funny - is how the integrity and rights of the poser artist are defended when a mesh is converted by someone like pegy/ rose...but people don't mind so much about XM sims.  I feel the same way myself really, but when people say their biggest problem is how converters gave no credit (while still saying they don't mind XM sims) whos it's really about paying for something that isn't neccessarily entriely the simmer's own.  

[mando]

Considering how similar all of the aforementioned hairs are to the poser
meshes (including XM sims, of course), and how many similar hairs come out at the same time, I'm not convinced at all that they aren't converted meshes even without definite proof.

Keep in mind that HP (I believe) is using milkshape which, while it is a fairly good cheap 3D program, is a sack of crap compared to higher end programs like 3DS Max or Maya. Things that might seem incredibly difficult in milkshape are likely to be a cinch in Maya (especially if you have a system). And trust me, Peggy, Rose et al, are not using milkshape.

[Ensign EO]

So that's another thing they're doing with people's money--buying Poser meshes!

It's all so lovely.

While I don't doubt that some Poser/et cetera meshes are converted with permission, I can't really believe it unless there's proof that the conversion was done with creator aware of it.

[Anouk]

You can contact a poser artist, strike a deal, and ask for the hair do be delivered in format, grouping, layering that you need to convert.
What we did was take hair made ready for poser and then disect them. There is a huge difference.
Poser community is a community where the artist may actually sell and profit from their creation. They'd simply take the highest bidder, and allow them to change and sell their stuff.
Why would they be that interrested in 2 people not willing to shell out hundreds of dollars to be able to convert and sell their stuff, but want to pay maybe 50 bucks and give it out for free? What would you choose?
As far as I know, we never got a reaction from most of the Poser artists we contacted.

So we where stuck on converting free poser hair that was not even made ready for conversion, in Milkshape.

You guys go ahead and do it. Not me.

[Jojoba]

@ Ginseng: I understand what you are saying about easily saying that the hairs are stolen, so thats why I put same, very similar, quite similar or influence as a 'verdict'. Which, to be honest, is me being very nice as it probably is the same poser hair. And I have found some very odd hair similarities, like VitaSims (it was a free hair so might not post) and also (AND dont get too excited, because I doubt it) one similar to Sshodan's - one of her celestial blossom hairs. Meh

I'm not an expert on poser at all - so please correct me if I'm wrong - but from what I've seen poser hair comes with different add-ons (like left bang, right bang, etc) and not all of these different combinations are pictured. Thats one way to easily tell if a mesh was originally poser (again correct me if I'm wrong), once imported into BodyShop the alpha of the hair is basicly pieces of hair plonked together - not layers. Sorry its hard to describe.

@ redisenchanted: Yep I'd rather leave free sites/creators out of this, I'm going for the paysites. :twisted:  And I've heard mixed things about converting poser content for sims: some say its verrryy hard, whilst others its pretty easy. It probably depends on the software tools you have - which is what Mando said.

@ Mando: thanks for that information. I dont understand meshing so thanks a lot I take it that 3DS Max and Maya are better than Milkshape then?...so it would be easier for them to get rid of those lovely neck gaps?

@ Ensign EO: Exactly what I think! And if they do give some credit/have permission, then its only a name not actually saying that they have converted the content.

@ Nouk: sorry, I didnt mean for PoserInitative to be dragged into this. It seems ridiculus to me that paysite creators go to all this trouble to find a poser hair and convert it...then they still have neck gaps and generally look bad. Your hairs are so much better

[mando]

Captain Jojoba: I take it that 3DS Max and Maya are better than Milkshape then?...so it would be easier for them to get rid of those lovely neck gaps?

Well, Maya and Max are much better, but I think fixing things like neck gaps aren't that difficult in Milkshape either (especially considering the vast numbers of tutorials that use it as the program of choice!)

The neck gaps say to me that the "creators" aren't bothering to even open up the game to see the mesh in action, so things like neck gaps appear due to poor (or no) testing. Like Nouk said, if you have the money you'll get exactly what you need to convert a poser mesh, so if you don't have the patience or skill (or desire) to create something on your own you probably don't really care how it looks in game.

[Jaida]

I don't care about XM Sims because their hair is free

[PirateOfMashedPotatoes]

I guess I'm blind because many of those hairs marked "Same" do not look at all the same.  I mean, there's a picture of a Poser hair in a ponytail and then a Sim hair in a ponytail.  Other than that, they look nothing alike.  How many different ways can one do a ponytail anyway?

[Lorelei]

You have to look at the underlying structure, not the texture. What's also confusing is taking into account alpha edits, which can make long ponytail shapes look shorter, because the texture isn't allowed to extend to the end of the potential mesh frame edge.


As for how many ponytails there can be for one game: a googillion. Which is why I've started to be really aggressive about zorching similar hair meshes.

@Nouk: I noticed that most, if not all, of your new hair items are binned, thanks! Should I re-DL old things, assuming that they've been caught and binned? Also, major kudos for, as far as I can tell, keeping polys super low in your work. I *heart* that, a LOT.

[RedLove]

I don't care about XM Sims because their hair is free

That is something that has always bothered me just a little. We fuss at Paysites for stealing but we don't fuss at the free sites for stealing  :? Its stealing either way.

[Ensign EO]

Agree'd.  In terms of quality, yeah, I'm more than likely going to ignore a free site that has shoddy downloads than a paysite charging for shit.  But taking other people's work and slapping your name on it--free site or not, it's not cool.

[Jaida]

I don't care about XM Sims because their hair is free

That is something that has always bothered me just a little. We fuss at Paysites for stealing but we don't fuss at the free sites for stealing  :? Its stealing either way.

It's more stealing for the pay sites because they're making money off of Renderosity's work.

[Anouk]

@Nouk: I noticed that most, if not all, of your new hair items are binned, thanks! Should I re-DL old things, assuming that they've been caught and binned? Also, major kudos for, as far as I can tell, keeping polys super low in your work. I *heart* that, a LOT.

Thanks!

Wouldn't download them just yet though, because besides binning, they need to be (re)animated as well. I'll just put up a note at my site when all of that is done. Some I might not do, because I hate some of the hairs now.