TSR Sharing your infomation!

[Phelim]

For what it's worth, I don't give a flying fuck what Aikea said in that thread.  She said it, she's come to hold a different world view, and there has been no proof as of yet she has ever condoned or shared personal information.  End of story. 

I have a memory like a sieve and to expect myself to remember even half of things I've said in the past (when I wasn't thinking about the whole picture and simply reacting) is ludicrous. To expect anyone to have a photographic memory and come here bleating out their sins for the masses to use as canon fodder for personal attacks for ages to come is also ludicrous.

Oh, woe!  I once questioned why people didn't pay for a subscription.  I should be wearing a hair shirt and flagellating myself for the next century with wet noodles and a trout.  Oh, woe!  My eleventy billion apologies aren't good enough.  Now I have to use the approved format and file in sextuplicate!

Honestly.  Someone is very busy sawing away at a sapling in the forest and forgetting about the trees.

[KatrinaHighKick]

Whew...

Let's remember that, things don't always happen the way we envision it. We have the hindsight and the outsider view, and because of that we have the preconceived assumption that whoever posted on that thread is immediately guilty of condoning sharing information. That's it, no gray area. However, wind back a year ago and put yourselves in Aikea's shoes. It's way easy to say "I would have stood up to them" because a) we don't like them in the first place b) ever since then we've been aware of the information sharing and had time to let our opinions mature. However, in the heat of it all, not everyone has that mindset. If we all did, a lot of stupid crap that's going on in the world right now would never happen. Of course, there's a difference between an annoyed message and pointing and laughing at the victims.

Just because A&G have "seen the light", per se, does not mean that they immediately became verified saints. The things they've said and done in the past will come back to haunt them, and it's up to us to understand that they're a) human b) contributors to the Sims community and c) supporters of the pirates
Being aware of that thread and even worse actually posting on it, is wrong, I'll not dispute that. But hey, they've done a lot of things we consider wrong while they were there. Maybe I forgive too easily, but I'm not holding it against them. They've been out there long enough and have been very vocal about their distaste for TSR and what it stands for and, AFAIK, there has been no indication that they have any secret agendas, not like some *other* people who apparently go free but still kiss Thomas' butt *cough*Atwat*cough*

And honestly, I have posted plenty of things without thinking before. If every single Message Board user out there actually measured their words and thought about it before posting, the online world would have a LOT LESS DRAMA.

[gelydh]

First off, I want to apologize for the rashness of the post I made last night. It was rude and could have been handled a lot better if I hadn't flown into a fit of rage, and for that I'm sorry.

So, I'm going to attempt to clarify some things with my head clear. If anyone has any questions, whether they've been voiced already or not, both myself and Aikea have no problem answering them in the best way we can.

Yes, we can see that there were 150 posts in that thread and that there was no opposition concerning it (that we're aware of anyway, for all we know, someone may have said something and it could have been deleted; neither I nor Aikea did, but it's possible someone did) speak volumes concerning TSR's manipulation and "brainwashing"? I'd wager a good many FAs, us included, would have opposed the sharing of personal information if it was presented that way. However, it wasn't. It was a list of "The Banned Pirates", therefore, for Aikea and I at least, it wasn't necessary to do more than glance at the list and move on.

Aikea's post in that thread certainly doesn't mean she supported the information sharing; after all, she could have simply clicked a 'new' tag and have been taken directly to Anita's comment, or thereabouts, bypassing the first post completely. So we honestly hadn't seen the actual information more than a handful of times, if that. I think we're both embarrassed that we were naive enough not to connect the list as TSR sharing personal information. A lot of what we said on TSR is mortifying, in retrospect.

We don't think we, or anyone for that matter, should have a 'get out of jail free' card simply for having a free site. I'm not excusing the thread, or Aikea's post, but I'm simply trying to give you our perspective. We simply did not connect that list as the sharing of personal information. Was that stupid of us? Sure it was, and maybe some of you feel that that's hardly an excuse, but that's really all there is to it, as far as our involvement is concerned anyway.

Finally, look, we're trying here. Are you concerned that, since you think we condoned the sharing of personal information, we might turn around and do the same again? If so, I can assure we have no such intentions. I'm not sure how much my assurances are worth, but there you have it. Like I said, if anyone has questions, we want to answer them. That's why we're here, posting. Yes, my being a bitch last night wasn't a good example of that, but it was a rash, hackles raised, defensive response. An uneccessary one at that.

[calalily]

Honestly.  Someone is very busy sawing away at a sapling in the forest and forgetting about the trees.

This may be your first comment on the people who posted there. It isn't mine.

Just because A&G have "seen the light", per se, does not mean that they immediately became verified saints.

So why exactly is it bad to expect an unreserved apology?

Aikea's post in that thread certainly doesn't mean she supported the information sharing; after all, she could have simply clicked a 'new' tag and have been taken directly to Anita's comment, or thereabouts, bypassing the first post completely. So we honestly hadn't seen the actual information more than a handful of times, if that.

But she posted referring to it. Reading and doing nothing is one thing. Posting on topic is another.

Are you concerned that, since you think we condoned the sharing of personal information, we might turn around and do the same again? If so, I can assure we have no such intentions. I'm not sure how much my assurances are worth, but there you have it.

Don't you see that apologies with but I " was not thinking" "am free now" "hate TSR" mean little?  I personally think that if the blame wasn't foisted totally in TSR's lap, and  personal responsibility was taken, this would be a lot better to me, and to all those people reading. You can't just say that it's someone else's fault at the time, and I personally would take assurances from someone who didn't try to apologise and make excuses at the same time. Because if you can't say "I fucked up - that was wrong, I was wrong" and need to start putting the blame somewhere else, assurances will never mean anything as there is no confidence that the person making the assurances has any integrity. It's always someone else's fault.

[Phelim]

Honestly.  Someone is very busy sawing away at a sapling in the forest and forgetting about the trees.

This may be your first comment on the people who posted there. It isn't mine.

Wonderful, you do know how to count.  Let's all throw a damn party for that, as well as for when someone came down and crowned you Entitlement Queen and gave you the right to demand how others should "apologize" for something, because obviously you are the authority here.  You know, you're a respected member of the community.  Even I respect you.  But right now I sure as hell don't like you, as in this thread, which I read fully before I decided to say anything about anything, makes you look like a spoiled child whining about not getting her way.

[Zazazu]

Aikea did post in that thread after all, and from the comment that she made in there, she is fully aware of what is going on and what that whole thread is about.  Despite her claims of not really realizing what the thread was about, we now have proof that what she said, wasn't true after all.

She's free now, and decidedly non-bitchy. I don't have the energy to care.

Don't you see that apologies with but I " was not thinking" "am free now" "hate TSR" mean little? 

Giving a reason for a mistake is not excusing a mistake, Calalily. How the hell are you supposed to apologize without doing so? Just say "I'm sorry". Please. If Aikea or Gelydh had just done that, you'd say it was insufficient (and I wouldn't blame you).

Your expectations are too damned high. You also seem to be the only one so extremely pissed off. Enjoy your righteous anger.

[Jojoba]

I imagine Atwa and all are having a lovely time reading all this. They must love the fact that Aikea (and Gelydh) are getting yelled at for what other TSR members were more involved in: A&G caused them butthurt for leaving, now they take the slack for what other TSR members do and those members just sit back and laugh at it all. I lack the want to entertain them any further, so back to the actual topic in hand..will wait until Coconut posts the rest of the thread to see how big a hole TSR staff and FAs have dug for themselves.

[calalily]

Honestly.  Someone is very busy sawing away at a sapling in the forest and forgetting about the trees.

This may be your first comment on the people who posted there. It isn't mine.

Wonderful, you do know how to count.  Let's all throw a damn party for that, as well as for when someone came down and crowned you Entitlement Queen and gave you the right to demand how others should "apologize" for something, because obviously you are the authority here.  You know, you're a respected member of the community.  Even I respect you.  But right now I sure as hell don't like you, as in this thread, which I read fully before I decided to say anything about anything, makes you look like a spoiled child whining about not getting her way.

Respected? Don't make me laugh. You, and everyone else many posters in this thread have been flinging all kinds of crap at me without reading what I said at all.  If I don't conform you'll all tell me what a bitch I am because I didn't kiss her arse. I didn't demand a damn thing from Aikea, just was actually treating her the way I would treat everyone else in this situation - pointing out that TSR didn't put her fingers to the keyboard. 

Plus, I can just say TSR brainwashing totally made me do it, plus I hate TSR, plus I'm free.  That should work.

Edited because "everyone" is not flinging crap, "many posters in this thread" are. 

[dietofworms]

 Cala, I think you're too way too harsh. Aikea did something wrong, of her own free will, which she admits.  But she's in a different frame of mind now, and what counts at this point is how she acts going forward. I can't see holding this against her forever. (We forgave her  for her participation in TSR when she left, didn't we?)

And anyway, what do we expect her to do now?  Disappear in a cloud of smoke from the shame of it all?  It's over and done.  And I don't think she owes "us" an apology, she didn't harm "us".  Arguably she participated in harming the people whose personal info was revealed.  But even then she wasn't a major player. If she owes an apology to anyone, it's to that list of people.

ETA: Not necessary to kiss anyone's ass.  But I think it's a good idea to be a little more flexible in your judgments.

[FreeShitOnly]

Wait..

Who the fuck threw Calalily under the bus?  This reminds me of a secret I read recently... but I digress.
Seriously, whenever the voices get louder I have to go back and read like 8 pages to catch up.. I swear this thread wasn't this long yesterday afternoon...

All Cala did was QUESTION.  Not accuse.  She questioned and wanted an explanation.  Pirates have done this before people.  This shit aint new.  Aikea isn't exempt from being questioned when new bullshit erupts.  But what happens?  Instead of looking at Cala's questioning logically, motherfuckers jumped on Aikea's team with the 'leave her alone' and the 'she's free now' rhetoric.  

Yeah, we ALL have respect for Aikea and Gelyd, that's a given.  They are NOT SHARING OTHER PEOPLES INFORMATION, they have humbled themselves and joined the pirates.  Good for them.

BUT

If calalily, as the true pirate she is, wants to question some shit,  let her question some shit.  She'd do the same thing if ShinoKCR happened to 'see the light' and then a year later gets confronted with some screenies of her partaking in random bullshit.

The last few pages have been convoluted with Calalily defending a pretty legitimate line of questioning and as you can see by Aikea's last response (as well as Gelyd's), all they had to do was continue conversing to reach a consensus.
In other words, they worked it out themselves despite all the flying rum bottles.

I'm going back to lurk, but DAMN, give Calalilly a break it was clarification and explanation that she sought.  Yes we love Aikea and Gely, yes they aren't a part of that shit anymore.  Yes sharing info and cheering the sharing of info is bad.  Yes pot roast with heinz 57 sauce is good shit.  DAMN

[calalily]

Cala, I think you're too way too harsh. Aikea did something wrong, of her own free will, which she admits.

No actually, she doesn't. This:

I'm not there anymore, I have no plans to ever go back, I hate everything TSR stands for, what the fuck more do you want?  It's very easy to say you'd have done things differently had you been in the situation, but when you're caught up in the propaganda machine that is TSR, things are different.  Black = white and white = black, the rest of the community is your enemy and we're the only ones you can count on, so on and so forth. 

is all about how it's not her fault, it's someone else's fault.

And I don't think she owes "us" an apology, she didn't harm "us". 

I can't find "demand" in my posts and I can't find "owe" either.  Please quote these posts, as I can't find them, and I'd be happy to apologise for using such words.

Who the fuck threw Calalily under the bus? 

Everyone but you and Snarky. 

[missangelica]

Just because someone has a free site doesn't mean their actions cannot be questioned.  I may enjoy someone's creations, but I have the right to tell them that I feel his/her action/reaction is fucked up.  While I think Calalily came on a little strong, her questions were valid.

Unfortunately for Calalily (and really, everyone else),  I think Aikea has already responded to the questions the best that she can and the results are unsatisfactory.  By her answers, I feel she's just trying to push that behind her instead of taking some time and introspecting on her actions that led her here.  I can't fault her for feeling that way, but by doing so, it remains unresolved.

I'm reminded of Enron and how many people were left with nothing (their pensions gone and their stock worthless) because of the higher ups that failed them.  The resulting court case against the higher ups lasted years and they were asked a lot of questions on wtf happened and why did they do what they did.

So, this isn't going away.  Not by a long shot.  Go brew some tea and go for a walk.  It will be ongoing when you return.

[Anouk]

If Aikea just steps in here and answers one little question we can all be happy little hippie pirates again.

Also, we all know that if she realised 100% what the thread was about and that it was illegal to share name+email, she sure as hell would have remembered something like this. Knowing that, she would have dug her own grave if she purposefully hid the truth, because Coconut woud have just posted what really happened.
But it will be nice to have some clarification, and not just 'well dude, I'm free now'. It's not impossible that she did know, but at the moment I think it's unlikely.

If she did know the legalities and just forgot afterwards: what are we going to do to a convert that's not supporting this kind of action anymore?
If she did know the legalities, did remember what she posted, etc, she would be kind of ... braindamaged. lol

[Darqstar]

This is odd... I actually can see everyone's POV in this thread. 

All I can add though, is that TSR is a strange place and the further "inside" you get, the stranger it gets.  The only way I know how to put it is that there is a cunning stupidity going on in the place.   Once they "notice" you, they start poking at you to find out what you're made of and if they can convert you or not.  If you start posting in the forums, they start really noticing you.  They befriend you, and soon it's not just about having a home for your creations, it's having a home for you and your Sim addiction.  Since the forums are heavily monitored and censored to only reflect the "true" feelings of TSR, it starts becoming too easy to get sucked in.  After all, there are people who share your love of creating, you've made some friends, you get too comfortable.  Then, if they think you're good enough, they "invite" you to be an FA.  By this point, you're in the swing with them, they've  been your friend through thick and thin, you're one of the crowd.  That's when they start really twisting your mind into their mindset and start wanting you to actively "join" their holy war.  Up until then, no one really asks you to take sides, it's just assumed you're on their side, and it's difficult to express that you're still undecided, because remember, the boards are censored and of course no one at TSR is going to allow a mature, rational, discussion on whether or not paysites are legal. 

I say stupid cunning because TSR does pull some absolute bonehead moves.  But, the dance of the conversion is one they do amazingly well. 

No, I'm not saying everyone who goes there will get sucked in.  There are folks out there who can keep themselves away from the brainwashing.  However, I got sucked in, I admit it, and usually I'm someone who doesn't just go along with the crowd.  I know there are others here who found themselves joining into the dance without even realizing it.  Like it or not, TSR is a huge presence in the Sim community and it's way too easy to find and way too easy to join in.

I'm not saying this to defend or accuse Aikea.  As I said at the beginning, I can see all sides of this.  The only thing that has me confused though, is what folks want from her now.  Since she can't change the past, and we don't know what the future holds, I don't know what is being asked of her.  She's explained her POV.  She can't do much more.   

Aikea a damned good creator with a huge fan base and she's left TSR.  That has to be a "victory" for PMBD, and a blow to TSR, no matter what she did while she was at TSR. To me, that's the most important thing.   But again, I do see the point of others here too.  There is nothing that says everyone must forgive and forget.   There are a lot of folks on that thread that I liked, admired, and thought were good people.  If any of them ever came over here and said they'd seen the light, I'd still be upset.  I'd still question what they'd done, and there is at least one of them that would never be able to earn my respect again.    Just because someone has changed, doesn't mean that everyone has to forgive and forget. 

[gelydh]

Okay, possibly I missed it, but what exactly is the one question that hasn't been answered? Calalily, I went through and read your posts and didn't see any of your questions; statements, replies, yes, but no questions. Granted, I could have missed something entirely.