Your Ugliest Paysite Creation Find: Round Two.

[Devilfish]

But bear this in mind, even Pescado posted at GoS and said that posting opinions on freesites are not against the rules here or at MATY, which has the same rule set. I considered myself a loyal "pirate" for some time, and I never thought I'd see the day when the terrifying PMBD pirates whined about how mean we are at GoS. I expect to be slammed for posting this, but let's at least be honest about who does what.

You know liegen, I agree with you for the most part. I don't really agree with people going into other people's forums and telling them they're doing it wrong, even if they are. I agree with Nouk's opinions, but not with the way she chose to express them, not with the place. And yes, maybe Nouk brought it here, sort of, kinda. I can only speak for myself here, but I personally left it at that because

a) I felt that Nouk had been ragged on more than enough for one week
b) I honestly didn't want the wank to migrate over here and
c) I understand that Nouk may feel the need to rage a little over all of this. At least I would be royally pissed if I were in her shoes, and pissed off people don't always act with the greatest amount of tact. I suspected she might be venting, which is completely understandable.

Steerpike's comment was a little hurtful, if only because the whole wank is still sort of fresh. This whole thing has been blown way out of proportion. That's why I ignored it. Because all I can really fault her for is choosing the wrong venue to express a perfectly valid opinion.

And I resent having to talk about someone else like this. I have no doubt that Noukie will be perfectly capable of answering you herself :p In the meantime though, that's where I stand, if it matters.

[liegenschonheit]

I don't like it either, Devilfish. Even though I felt slighted by Nouk's comment, I chose not to respond. I don't really want to stir up more drama here or anywhere else, but I don't think it was fair for Paden to call Steerpike names for bringing the drama here when she was reacting to what someone else said. I am also trying my hardest not to say anything mean or hurtful to anyone, even though some of these things sting a bit for me, personally.

[redisenchanted]

Want to bash content from free sites?

Don't.

Sure, there's some stuff for free out there that is craptastic. However, just like you don't tell your Aunt Helen how awful the sweater she knitted you is, we don't talk smack about free creations.

What's the difference? Money hadn't changed hands. When you pay for something, you have an expctation of quality. When someone gives you something, you have no expectations.

We may not personally like every free item, but we admire anyone who creates and is happy to give the product of their hobby to fellow fans.

Take your complaints elsewhere.


(This point has been made within other parts of the FAQ, but since it came up AGAIN, we decided to make a separate paragraph for it. See what you've driven us to?)

http://phorum.mustnotbenamed.com/index.php/topic,1104.0.html

Pescado may not care but it's in the FAQ.

The whole thing was blown out of proportion, but it can't be surprising that we'd take Nouk's side in all of this.  I don't like what happened at GOS. I honestly didn't notice Nouk's first comment, I doubt anyone would have noticed if steerpike didn't toss in her little dig.

[Devilfish]

But redisenchanted, those are our rules, and nobody insulted any freesite creators here in the course of this discussion. I really don't want to get into an argument about what is and isn't bashing and whether or not it happened at GoS, but I do know that FAQ is just a bunch words outside this forum.

I do want to take Nouk's side in this, if sides need to be taken at all, and I was a little irked to see that silly wank first pop up in the first place, but fair's fair and liegen has a point.

[SoggyFox]

To be honest, I -didn't- know what Nouk was referring to.  When you are a part of something, then sure, its obvious, but what matters is if its obvious to those not in the know.

And we -don't- bash free creators here - what others do on their forums is fine, but we don't here, and I personally won't anywhere.

[redisenchanted]

I was responding to the statement that it's not against the rules to bash freesites here. I know it's what Pescado said over at GOS, but it is in the FAQ here.

[Paden]

It was my understanding that Nouk was responding to the conversation we were having at the time where it had been suggested that we ought to be nicer about pay site creators and she was stating her opinion about how things were seen. I saw Steerpike's comment as an attempt to drag something over here that didn't belong because it didn't take place here. And since when is calling someone a dumbass over not following the FAQ a reason to get all hurt? I wasn't getting mean. I was speaking my honest mind about it. What Steerpike said did not sound like an opinion to me, it sounded like an attempt to start the wank here. What Nouk said sounded like an opinion to me.

[liegenschonheit]

It isn't a reason to get all hurt, but steerpike didn't break the FAQ either. Perhaps what she said could be interpreted as dragging wank over, or it could be in response to the wank that was already dragged over by someone else. Either way, I said my piece and that's all I wanted to do, really. If you don't wish to point out flaws in free creator's stuff here, that's totally fine and I see no reason to argue with you about it as I do make it a point to play by the rules in someone else's house. I do think it is kind of odd though, that Pescado says one thing and the FAQ says another. At any rate, there are too many members of both PMBD and GoS to let something like this be a major point of contention. I hate to see people feel uncomfortable at either forum because we see this one issue in different ways.

[kenmtl]

PA much?

I knew exactly what Nouk was referring to as did steerpike. I quoted it and re-enforced it because steerpike decided to do a flyby. She took a potshot and people shot back. Tough shit for her. If she has a problem with that she should come and deal with it herself. Otherwise she needs to just shut the fuck up.

[Paden]

We have an accord on that. We try to encourage them (the free creators) with advice and recommendations on what could help something look better if they come asking us. Many, myself being among them, don't like to slap at the people that make stuff and just hand it out without asking a thing for it except maybe a thank you. When it comes to creating things, I can't do a damn thing. While I don't know the first thing about what goes into making it, and I've tried to learn, I do appreciate the time and effort our community's free creators put into their projects.

The free people are still in the field of non-professionals, because they don't take a dime for a damn bit of their work, and it's not for us that receive it for nothing but a thank you to bite them. When they cross into the sector of wanting money for their work, that's a different ball of wax. When you pay for something, you've got all the right in the world to demand, "What in the FUCK is that supposed to be?!" or, "She wants money for that pile of mess?!" If I don't care for something, I don't download it, simple as that. (I sure the hell won't pay for it, either!) I don't want to turn off the people that provide the nice shinies out of the love of the game and goodness of their hearts. I don't care about pay site people quitting, they don't deserve the money or the praise because let's face it, many of them do not take the time and effort to make sure that it looks and functions properly in our games like our talented free creators do.

[SoggyFox]

Personally, GoS does recolours of paycrap and the like - the place has a completely different focus.  Hell, iirc MATY has a more or less neutral stance on paystuff.

I don't see a problem with people being on both forums - I don't know what happened, but I do know that it was asked to leave it off of PMDB - that can't be that hard.  If the fuss is about bashing hobbiests or not, then it seems that folks can agree its not really acceptable behavior -here-.  Yes, there is plenty of not so good free CC - want to know something, I've got some not so good knit stuff down stairs too - its how folks learn.

[neriana]

I do think it is kind of odd though, that Pescado says one thing and the FAQ says another.

You find that odd? Seriously?

[rum nate]

Yeah, I agree with what Darqstar and Paden said- I believe they wouldn't care what kind of site it was: if it's hosting copyrighted images they would probably go after it.   Plus, at the moment TSR isn't making money off of Voldemort/ other HP characters since udontknow is free (for how long though??) .
BUT they are of course hosting other copyrighted material (chaz and jirka's celebrity sims=copyright Infringement since they obviously do not OWN the copied images or have the celebrities permission to do their likeness.) (BTW: are they the same guy?? bc their work looks sooo eerily similar. Hmm I think they are IMO. Double the crook.) This of course is just a small token of the illegally uploaded stuff there.  

I would think that if they were selling the copyrighted udontknow HP stuff though, that WB would probably be more likely to focus on them than the freesites. They would probably actually sue TSR for royalities/revenue made from said sale and probably just issue a letter telling the freesites to take their stuff down. BUT you know chaz (i believe?) has the HP trio up for sale...this may call for a point of contact just to see if WB is aware/ cares. hmmm as rum_nate says it may not hurt to find out....

I just don't want to get freesites in trouble for hosting the same kind of content. But really if you think about it from a company's point of view, TSR is making money even off of the stuff that is free. You are paying a subscription, and that does not limit you to just the pay stuff. So if I have a 2 month subscription at TSR and I download some free content, I still paid for it, because I paid that subscription.

[siberiansunset]

True, but people can still get it without a sub (which is my case)-but the company should definitely keep what you just mentioned in mind! Because sadly, a lot of people do come there for the FA crap creations. And of course while there they take advantage of having access to all dls. So, technically you are correct. I too don't want to get any freesite peps in trouble...too bad there's not too many options.  what to do huh?

[Darqstar]

Err, I just want to clarify that I don't think we should alert Disney as to paysites using their images and likewise.  I'm sure enough Disney Employees know it's happening, probably some of them even play the game and for all we know make CC as a hobby.  But, I think they're playing the game of, "If our Official Disney persona doesn't see it, then it's NOPE." 

If we drag Disney into it, and force them to see what is happening,  they'll most likely just go after everyone that has any of their images.  Yes, we can tell them, "Only go after the paysites, they're the ones making money from your images!" but Disney isn't going to be that finicky.  Their opinion will be to just slam every site using any of their images.  They aren't going to play a gaime of, "Well, this site is free, that site isn't, this site has a donation button, that side doesn't," so on and so forth.