I smell bullshit

[liegenschonheit]

I absolutely don't think that when I put my lovely, hard worked on texture files into a .package, I should lose all rights to it. It is my complete choice to allow my stuff to be manhandled and dismantled, and that's fine with me. I do support "creator rights", to an extent.

To me, creators should have the basic right to be acknowledged. If you create something, the very least that you should get is credited for your work. No one else should be able to claim your work or anything shady like that. However, in my opinion, rights shouldn't extend to charging for an item that contains code/images/meshes created by someone else. I especially gag when I see paysites that are blatantly using images lifted from the internet (not every image on the internet is free source!), or meshes that have been lifted from 3D sites. Paysite/EA debate aside, using those resources for profit is copyright violation.

Anyway, EULA or not, I just balk at the idea of having to pay for something that should be free. If EA came out and said paysites are kosher by them, I'd still go back to quietly filesharing. I am something of a pirate anyway, I almost never shell out money for software, games or music sight unseen (or sound unheard, as it were), and often I only actually go out and buy the product if it is exceptional. So yeah, I'm not trying to play goody-goody here, I do things regularly that aren't always above board. I think this debate would get a lot more productive if everyone involved stopped pretending that they are above reproach.

Also, I am usually more than happy to keep whatever filesharing I do out of the "community eye". If paysites were operating the way they had done  when TS2 first came out, I would probably still be mum about it. When only a very few sites were pay and they usually had exceptional stuff, I still disagreed with the general practice and would get what I could without forking over cash, it wasn't quite as galling. Now, every mediocre sim creator seems to think it is only their due to set up shop and rake in the cash. This is the trend a lot of us want to put a stop to, and raise a little hell to let those people know loud and clear that this is not okay by us.

Anyway, on my part at least, the FAs at TSR are not being targeted or anything like that. After all, if FAs were raking in the bucks, how would Thomas be making his money? I think the place is rather vile and despicable, but not because of the "talent", though it would be nice to see them move to a free venue. It is because the "owner" is profiting so hugely off of the efforts of others, and rather despotic with the running of the place.

[BlueSoup]

And BTW, putting an original bmp into an EA package does not relinquish the creator's rights to their ORIGINAL work. But hey the EULA was never intended for individuals or Sim sites in the first place. it is a protection for EA from infringment by other Large corporations.

And TSR isn't a large corporation?

People aren't supposed to be profiting from game content, period.

[lordrichter]

Although in online arguments, i read it states that maxis does not own your material' but when used in their games/computer playable material, it is of free use to them to do what they please to it.. including useing it in future expansions, not that they own it, although that argument may be wrong? thats what i have read into it so far, You lose control of your object/Material.

The point I tried to make in another posting in another location was along the lines of whether use of EA intellectual property included an implicit agreement to allow EA distribution rights for non-EA copyrighted material also included.

My thought is that it is impossible to make a Sims 2 package file without use of some EA intellectual property, or some intellectual property that EA has licensed for their own use.  This may not necessarily be copyrights, but could include patents and trademarks.  I have not searched the USPTO to see who owns the file format used by packages.

Until EA did the trick with the meshes on the Exchange, there was no indication that EA was thinking in that direction.  However, now there is indication that EA is thinking along those lines.

If that is the case, then yes, placing your content in a package file may very well mean an implicit grant of distribution rights to EA.  That may be limited solely to cases where the content ends up on the Exchange, by whatever means it gets there.

[lordrichter]

Funny, because I don't think any creators have paid for the right to sell their EA-derivative works either.

No, I doubt that they have.  It is also equally true that EA has not lifted a finger to do anything about it.  

Unless you count including meshes on the Exchange to be a first move.

Lack of action on the part of EA could be considered to be approval to do so.

[BlueSoup]

Lack of action on the part of EA could be considered to be approval to do so.

The same can be said for a lack of action about this site, which they are certainly aware of.

The whole thing is:  Both sides (pro- and anti-) are obviously going to conflict.  However, EA has not made a move in either direction, which basically means we're butting our heads here in what really amounts to a stalemate.  I continue to debate this topic on other sites because I feel too many people are being brainwashed into believing that paysites are the norm, when in fact this is like the first community to have such a large concentration of them.  Everyone and their dog seems to think they can make quick cash on unsuspecting game players, and that needs to end before it becomes an epidemic out of control (if it's not already).

[lordrichter]

And TSR isn't a large corporation?

TSR does not even display the "required" EA disclaimer as specified in the EULA.  It is unlikely that the actions of TSR have gone unnoticed by the highly paid staff of lawyers at EA.

The fact that TSR is still going at it, and being even more greedy about it, says that either they think that EA has rolled over and won't do anything, or they have already made a licensing agreement with EA that allows them to profit from Sims 2 material.

There is nothing that says that either party must disclose such an agreement, unless the disclosure was part of the agreement.  TSR has reason the keep such a license under wraps if they think that others might follow and do the same thing, thus cutting into the pie.

[lordrichter]

Lack of action on the part of EA could be considered to be approval to do so.

The same can be said for a lack of action about this site, which they are certainly aware of.

I don't see this site violating EA copyrights since they have said that content created using EA tools and materials may be distributed for private non-commercial use.  That should cover any EA intellectual property in the packages that you have on here, even if they don't claim distribution rights for all content in packages.

EA could care less about Peggy's copyrights (for example) and I doubt that they would spend money if they did.

[BlueSoup]

Ah well in *that* case, why not as a group all move elsewhere?  You don't need to lose your connections with your friends at all

You can join my TSR defectors and I'll sponsor you.

[BlueSoup]

Also, I am usually more than happy to keep whatever filesharing I do out of the "community eye". If paysites were operating the way they had done  when TS2 first came out, I would probably still be mum about it. When only a very few sites were pay and they usually had exceptional stuff, I still disagreed with the general practice and would get what I could without forking over cash, it wasn't quite as galling. Now, every mediocre sim creator seems to think it is only their due to set up shop and rake in the cash. This is the trend a lot of us want to put a stop to, and raise a little hell to let those people know loud and clear that this is not okay by us.

Anyway, on my part at least, the FAs at TSR are not being targeted or anything like that. After all, if FAs were raking in the bucks, how would Thomas be making his money? I think the place is rather vile and despicable, but not because of the "talent", though it would be nice to see them move to a free venue. It is because the "owner" is profiting so hugely off of the efforts of others, and rather despotic with the running of the place.

I totally agree about the first part; I would go back to quietly filesharing with my friends, but Pescado made this site to put it in the public eye and to NOT stay quiet about it.  I'd rather be in somewhat limited control over what happens here than not, like for instance not putting up stuff by Around the Sims 2.  Since Pescado is not a downloader, he has no idea what is a paysite and what isn't.

I don't have anything against any of the creators at TSR either (except perhaps Windkeeper), and I'd be happy to have a whole bunch on their own free site which I would even pay for.

[toomanyguppys]

All the legal crap has been discussed to death, and most people simply believe whatever they came to the table believing in the first place, or believing whatever is most beneficial for themselves.  Personally, I don't care.

The fact is that user-made content for computer games has traditionally been a community thing, freely given, freely shared, and some thanks, admiration, and appreciation has been the only payment sought.  Gamers take inspiration (and help) from modders and learn to mod themselves, and on it goes.  

Then the sims came along and some scum-of-the-earth saw an opportunity to make some cash, and took it.  And it needs to be stopped because it's a disease that could possibly spread to the gaming community at large.

I really don't know about the legal end of it.  Honestly, from my reading of the EULA, for what it's worth, the moment any user-made content becomes "commercial," that is, sold for money, all other arguments about copyright cease, because the EULA has been violated.  But I'm no more a lawyer than all the other people commenting--so my opinion flies well with me, but may not fly at for you.  But it doesn't matter.

The FIRST wrong was done when money was charged for user-made content in the first place.  Whether or not the second wrong (sharing "pay" content freely) is even wrong at all is irrelevant to me--it would have never been an issue had the first wrong not been commited.

Personally, I don't beleive what this site is doing IS wrong, nor do I believe it's illegal--or, if it is, EA themselves have been committing the same crime with the Exchange.  You'd think their lawyers would have already told them to stop it if there was a possible problem, but hey, who knows.

On another note, I'm a little confused on the issue of TSR FA's, so maybe someone can help me out here.
If they are NOT making decent money from being TSR FA's, then why ARE they TSR FA's?  Doesn't it bother them that certain other people ARE making a good chunk of change off their creations?  There's got to be some kind of perks involved somehow that are more than "oh I like the people," because that's just dumb, and the FA's strike me as smarter than that.

Of course--now that they ARE FA's they might as well stay there, really.  TSR is like Hotel California--you can check out anytime you like but TSR is gonna keep your creations and continue to make money of 'em.  Can you choose to stay at TSR (since the "community" is what you're there for right) and just not be an FA?  If I saw an FA do that, I might start to really beleive the "I'm not there for the money" bit.  Til then, I want to believe, but I'm just not convinced.

[BlueSoup]

I think the TSR FA's all sort of got lured/hired/promoted/whatever as they went along.  Someone who was there near the beginning, making good content may not be making much at all, if any.

Someone who is prolific with content releases and makes consistently good content, has a large number of downloads and seems to be a magnet for subscribers (ie. Windkeeper) will probably get more money than others.

New FA's who fold their site in favour of going to TSR probably get paid a fair bit.

All this is based on conjecture, and not fact.

[babajayne]

I've been reading for a good week now, and I have to say I went through many different emotions but have chilled out considerably and won't vent them.  (And I gotta tell you, I laughed my ass of over the Carla Niven thread.  Yeah, I read the whole thing.)  But I have a few things to say and here they are.

Sure, you have the booty! but PMBD does not even come close to offering what TSR does.  TSR provides a comprehensive database through which anyone can conveniently search for specific downloads.

It's all about convenience.  No one would download any TSR downloads off your booty without viewing them on TSR first.  Therefore, your site leeches off TSR and your beef is really with them, not EA.  Except EA likes TSR (obviously, since they invite Steve to EP previews).

TSR provides a service; they give subscribers the downloading wizard, they update the site frequently, they offer such variety, the fun challenge wizard, the community, etc.  You don't appreciate the censorship, but many parents do (It's called marketing :wink: ).  And sure, I don't know why they don't like for people to try to discuss "business" on their forums.  It's none of our business how they run their company.  Maybe they like to keep that kind of thing private.  Lots of companies do.

So I was wondering... could you design, build, maintain, staff, and run a site like TSR for free?  Because that would be amazing.  I'd love to see you do it, Pescado.  Your generosity has always been something to admire.  (I'm not being sarcastic... I love your work)

You think making a site like that is easy?  PROVE IT.  If you turned this site into something people could actually USE with the features TSR has, then you'd really have something over it.

To me, this isn't an issue of selling custom content at all.  This is selling a database.  And paysites have every right to charge for it if they put up a good website.


disclaimer: Although I am a TSR Forum Moderator, my affiliation is completely voluntary and I get site priveleges only.  I am not privy to the interworkings of TSR nor do I represent TSR officially.  I speak only my opinion.

[redisenchanted]

So I was wondering... could you design, build, maintain, staff, and run a site like TSR for free?  Because that would be amazing.  I'd love to see you do it, Pescado.  Your generosity has always been something to admire.  (I'm not being sarcastic... I love your work)

You think making a site like that is easy?  PROVE IT.  If you turned this site into something people could actually USE with the features TSR has, then you'd really have something over it.

Erm, MTS 2 already does all that with a vastly superior search function and no half-naked sleazy date service ads.

[ihavenoteeth]

So sure, charge for all the extras if you want and if people want those extras, I'm sure they'll pay for them. But how can you say they have the right to charge for actual custom content? The download wizard is bs anyway, MTS provides much the same features and convenience as TSR and is completely free.

[tIIsuggas]

I've been reading for a good week now, and I have to say I went through many different emotions but have chilled out considerably and won't vent them.  (And I gotta tell you, I laughed my ass of over the Carla Niven thread.

This thread is a hoot.

http://phorum.mustnotbenamed.com/viewtopic.php?t=241