Numenor's Opinion of pay vs free

[HawkGirl]

You mentioned Rose...Rose may not have done anything to you, but she did give out Paypal information on customers.

.

I heard about this after I came here. I believe the person that accused her of it. I have no reason not to believe them, nor do I believe they would have any reason to lie about it. I had already donated for all her things before I ever heard about this, and had been corresponding with her for a long time. Like I said she's never done anything to me and has always gone out of her way to be helpful. It was Rose that was the first one to give me permission to use her mesh, and that helped me do my first recolor. That explained editing to me. I do think she owes the person she did that too an apology, a sincere one. If I had heard about it first I wouldn't have donated to her, or had anything to do with her, but I didn't. It's kinda hard to hate someone that goes out of their way to help you when so many basically say go away. I had written to over 20 people asking for permission to try to do a recolor on their mesh. I even said I will send you the results first to see if you approve of it or not. She was the only one that answered me back and volunteered to help, when I told her I really had no idea what I was doing, but wanted to try. That was months before I ever donated a dime to her. There is a world of difference going from 2d art to 3d art.

[Amazone]

After reading Numenor's long-winded essay and trying to make some sort of sense out of it I have this to say....he just wants someone to stroke his ego. I'm tired of creators (and sometimes the fans themselves) in this "community" thinking they're owed something by either EA/Maxis or the fans.

Have you been to our Thank-thread by the way? To tell that you're greatful that Pescado has made this site possible and put up a server
to people who can't afford or don't want to support paysites? I respect
Pescado for that, even if i tried with some silly jokes.

I hope you do not take this for granted, there are a lot of work behind
fighting paysites too. When it comes to Numenor, yes, i think i owe him
respect, he is a great modder at MTS2 wich is a FREE community. Free
downloads - it takes a second to push on the thanks button after downloading something. Numenor has his personal reason to complain when his file ends up in the booty, he felt like he was compared to other paysites which he do not support. He is NOT arrogant at all, but very kind and helpful. I can understand why he felt hurt, absolutely!

But, yes, there is a but. He should know how pirates work, they take all the payfiles and put it in the booty. Gwen told me Numenor haven't even tried to speak to the pirates, discussed it or asked if his file could be left alone.

I wish he had, people here are not entirely unreasonable, and with a dialog, maybe the file wouldn't end up in the booty. So on the other hand, i can understand why the pirates was hurt too, cause of that poll.
This issue sucks to me. And i do not use my heart, but my brain. Now Delphy has locked the debate about paysites on S2C. It's impossible to
speak ones opinion, cause we, the pirates took one of Delphys most
respected and talented creators file and shared it.

And well, now his tanningbed has got a lot of PR, commercial too, so i am sure people are donating him now, and downloading it.

All the free creators earn thanks and feedback, i am an artist myself, and God, how happy i was when i sold some paintings, and won
a photocontest. Some stole a photo from me, i was mad as hell. Another guy stole a poem, claimed he had written it. I was schocked. I have more stories about that, but will not continue. These examples must not be misunderstood, cause it has nothing to do with
paysites, i am among those who are nearly fanatic against paysites.
I wrote this just to tell how hurtful it feels when free creators have to read they do not earn anything, or like their owed something?? They make the game more fun, and should hear that. Numenor has some hacks and funny stuff i am totally in love with. I got them for free at MTS2, so can you. His scriptorium makes it easier for creators to make beutiful fireplaces, stairs, lights, walls, floors. The players and builders should preciate that, and i have the impression most people do. This goes for all other free creators too.

I would donate 5 euro to him, for his tanningbed, not just to say thank you for making this - but to give him a little optional gift for making so much stuff available for free at MTS2. He made it a pay-item, but he did not set any prize, everything from 1 cent was okay. Pirates have their rules, a payitem is a payitem, and ends up in the booty. And as a pirate myself, i admit that he did a mistake - after typing he is against TSR and Peggysims and other paysites himself. He could have used another system for downloading the tanningbed, which is not a crappy item, he do not make crap. He could have used the system Silver suggested earlier in the other thread. But honestly, that is not up to noone here
to decide, it's only a suggestion.

I do consider all sites who make payfiles as paysites, and too many of them make bad stuff, other make better stuff. Yes, it Is wrong to claim
payment for a file, from a pirates opinion. But somehow, i wonder,
was it really worth it, making Numenors file available in the booty?
the results are: Delphy has locked the threads - most people do preciate
MTS2 and Numenor, and they can turn even more against us cause of this. I am not sure this is the right way to kill paysites.

Pescado wrote something about a camels nose into the tent, and warned about getting the entire camel in there. Maybe he's right, maybe Numenor would sell more items after a while. But this is pure guessing.
Preemptive strikes is not what i consider as necessary, or the absolutely right thing to do, not since Numenor is one of the most important representants for the free site like MTS2. he has a strong position there, and i do not want to loose him. That goes for all the other creators too, who are talented and give players fun for free.

[HideTheRum]

Wow - I've been away on vacation and quitting smoking and what do I see as I come back here? Numenor going slightly drama queenish. I'm disappointed in his behaviour, and I'm all the more disappointed not despite how great he is and what good he did/does to the community, but especially because of it. When it comes to pay files, things like greatness and helpfulness become utterly irrelevant - judgement on the matter needs to stay depersonalized in order for the principle to remain objective, and thus valid. We don't judge the creator, we judge the file. Is it pay? yes? Then let it be booty. It really is that simple, to me.

[JFederated]

Just for funzies, you can start reading at the post linked below.  It was Numenor's fellow modder Inge that brought his payfile to Hec's attention in the first place in a discussion about Misleading Links to 'free' downloads.  Not that Inge's points are invalid or anything, but that she mentioned discussing them with Numenor made me remember it:

http://phorum.mustnotbenamed.com/viewtopic.php?p=38411&highlight=#38411

It was this comment specifically that lodged like a splinter in my brain:

"I have a feeling he's actually got that file there to see what happens as much as because he wants the money. I had a strong "devils advocate" feeling when he was debating it at the FFSS"

So...I'm paranoid.  Because they're out to get me.    :lol:

I respect skill, I respect generosity, I respect work.  I respect others who have alternate or differing views because that educates, I respect those who give enough of a damn to see beyond themselves because that can matter more than anything sometimes.  I see all of those things in this community, here, MATY, Insim, MST2, any number of sites and forums, yes, even the official site has a great number of people who do all those things on a regular basis.  They cannot be discounted.

All I want is for those to whom I show respect to show me a bit in return.  It's not so much to ask, common courtesy.  Don't have to do anything except not call me a moron for existing, which is what initally came out of this Numenor thing for me.  

And yes, I'm really that easy.

Numenor's file should stay in the Booty as long as any amount of money is required to obtain it, for that is the established criteria and it's no big secret that no one is immune.  If he cannot see the principle behind this and that it is the fault of paysites who abuse other gamers that caused it to happen this way, then he's quite out of the loop and needs to catch up.

I will not insult his intelligence by concluding he's merely on an ego trip.  I'll give him the benefit of the doubt that he hasn't experienced what too many of us have at the hands of certain paysites.  I cannot know beforehand that when I give over actual funds to a paysite that I will not be cheated somehow.  There is no check and balance and it's gotten well out of line.  I wish paysites would police themselves and rein in the worst of them, but that will never happen.

The Booty is drastic, but what else has made the most impact and raised the most awareness?

Saying 'please' certainly didn't.

[blackmars]

After reading Numenor's long-winded essay and trying to make some sort of sense out of it I have this to say....he just wants someone to stroke his ego. I'm tired of creators (and sometimes the fans themselves) in this "community" thinking they're owed something by either EA/Maxis or the fans.

Have you been to our Thank-thread by the way? To tell that you're greatful that Pescado has made this site possible and put up a server
to people who can't afford or don't want to support paysites? I respect
Pescado for that, even if i tried with some silly jokes.

I hope you do not take this for granted, there are a lot of work behind
fighting paysites too. When it comes to Numenor, yes, i think i owe him
respect, he is a great modder at MTS2 wich is a FREE community. Free
downloads - it takes a second to push on the thanks button after downloading something. Numenor has his personal reason to complain when his file ends up in the booty, he felt like he was compared to other paysites which he do not support. He is NOT arrogant at all, but very kind and helpful. I can understand why he felt hurt, absolutely!

But, yes, there is a but. He should know how pirates work, they take all the payfiles and put it in the booty. Gwen told me Numenor haven't even tried to speak to the pirates, discussed it or asked if his file could be left alone.

I wish he had, people here are not entirely unreasonable, and with a dialog, maybe the file wouldn't end up in the booty. So on the other hand, i can understand why the pirates was hurt too, cause of that poll.
This issue sucks to me. And i do not use my heart, but my brain. Now Delphy has locked the debate about paysites on S2C. It's impossible to
speak ones opinion, cause we, the pirates took one of Delphys most
respected and talented creators file and shared it.

And well, now his tanningbed has got a lot of PR, commercial too, so i am sure people are donating him now, and downloading it.

All the free creators earn thanks and feedback, i am an artist myself, and God, how happy i was when i sold some paintings, and won
a photocontest. Some stole a photo from me, i was mad as hell. Another guy stole a poem, claimed he had written it. I was schocked. I have more stories about that, but will not continue. These examples must not be misunderstood, cause it has nothing to do with
paysites, i am among those who are nearly fanatic against paysites.
I wrote this just to tell how hurtful it feels when free creators have to read they do not earn anything, or like their owed something?? They make the game more fun, and should hear that. Numenor has some hacks and funny stuff i am totally in love with. I got them for free at MTS2, so can you. His scriptorium makes it easier for creators to make beutiful fireplaces, stairs, lights, walls, floors. The players and builders should preciate that, and have the impression most people do. This goes for all other free creators too.

I would donate 5 euro to him, for his tanningbed, not just to say thank you for making this - but to give him a little optional gift for making so much stuff available for free at MTS2. He made it a pay-item, but he did not set any prize, everything from 1 cent was okay. Pirates have their rules, a payitem is a payitem, and ends up in the booty. And as a pirate myself, i admit that he did a mistake - after typing he is against TSR and Peggysims and other paysites himself. He could have used another system for downloading the tanningbed, which is not a crappy item, he do not make crap. He could have used the system Silver suggested earlier in the other thread. But honestly, that is not up to noone here
to decide, it's only a suggestion.

I do consider all sites who make payfiles as paysites, and too many of them make bad stuff, other make better stuff. Yes, it Is wrong to claim
payment for a file, from a pirates opinion. But somehow, i wonder,
was it really worth it, making Numenors file available in the booty?
the results are: Delphy has locked the threads - most people do preciate
MTS2 and Numenor, and they can turn even more against us cause of this. I am not sure this is the right way to kill paysites.

Pescado wrote something about a camels nose into the tent, and warned about getting the entire camel in there. Maybe he's right, maybe Numenor would sell more items after a while. But this is pure guessing.
Preemptive strikes is not what i consider as necessary, or the absolutely right thing to do, not since Numenor is one of the most important representants for the free site like MTS2. he has a strong position there, and i do not want to loose him. That goes for all the other creators too, who are talented and give players fun for free.

Apparently you're under the impression that I take for granted some of the creators that do make things but don't ask for their egos to be stroked.

I do appreciate what Pescado has done and there alot of other creators I appreciate too. (Meaning go back and read what I said about Numenor deserving the respect but not an ass-kissing. Read...it's fundamental).

[Amazone]

blackmars
I got that impression from your first post.
No i do not think that you are taking anything for granted. Your post with
"ass-kissing" were written when i wrote my post, and as a non-english, i use a bit more time to write. Kissing his ass? I don't think people do that.
Look at TSR and see how they kiss real assholes.

[Zazazu]

Heck, I don't even need thanks. One person downloads a file I put out there and I feel great about it...like it was worth jumping through hoops or the time it took to take a screenshot and pop it into a .rar.

[Amazone]

Heck, I don't even need thanks. One person downloads a file I put out there and I feel great about it...like it was worth jumping through hoops or the time it took to take a screenshot and pop it into a .rar.

As a pirate, i would thank free artists to promote free sites - that's
why i think it's important to give them feedback

[Lorelei]

Heck, I don't even need thanks. One person downloads a file I put out there and I feel great about it...like it was worth jumping through hoops or the time it took to take a screenshot and pop it into a .rar.

That's how I feel about the freebies on my 4shared site. To date, there are several hundred downloads, and only 5-6 people ever thanked me, and I think I only heard from two of them because 4shared has stupid robots filtering filenames. I had to rename some things to make them downloadable.

Do I care that hundreds of downloads have been made without comment? Absolutely not. I'm grateful for the "this is neat, yay!" stuff, but I share because I want to give something back, not because I think my stuff is great or for recognition or praise. And it is all free. Always.

No hoops to jump through, no registrations or log-ins, no secret pizza fund, and no toe-sucking, grovelling and/or grape-peeling required. (Even if I do have a cult, it isn't very demanding of its members. )

[Pescado]

But if a tons of sincere thanks and the worship of lots and lots of people isn't enough, and if we end up being perceived as assholes for honestly standing up for what we believe is right, then, friends, as one of my favorite fictional characters use to say: so be it!

Yes, also, the thought of being perceived as an asshole by the rest of the community doesn't bother me in the slightest. I already know I'm an asshole. I've done nothing to hide this. The fact that people persist in believing otherwise is simply an example of the human capacity for self-delusion.

[neriana]

Heck, I don't even need thanks. One person downloads a file I put out there and I feel great about it...like it was worth jumping through hoops or the time it took to take a screenshot and pop it into a .rar.

EXACTLY.

If someone is doing something in return for thanks, that is still expecting a kind of payment. I do not understand this. Thanks are a nice bonus, and it's very nice to be appreciated, but whenever I've made something for a game, it's for my own use and I think "hey, maybe other people will want it too."

As soon as you do something in return for payment from others, whether it's money or thanks or underwear or webcams, you no longer have a hobby. You have a job.

[Duckie]

I don't need thanks for the stuff I've made and share. Everytime I see that something's been downloaded and that it didn't lead to a pixel-mob trying to pixel-slap me, I have a happy moment.  





*Edited typo

[lemmiwinks]

The Booty is drastic, but what else has made the most impact and raised the most awareness?

Does this remind anyone else of the "Boston Tea Party"?

Pes is a revolutionary who has ruffled some very big feathers. I am proud to be part of it.

[Amazone]

How come everyone always disagree with me?    I thought it was ok
to promote freesites, by saying, thank you for giving me this for free.
And to paysites: fuck you, i don't like your attitude.

If some of you do not want to be thanked for creating anything, ok by me. Just look at the thread: look at my creations and worship me. Don't people want any feedback on their creations? I'll remember the nicknames and ain't gonna say anything if you do not need any feedback. (Liers).  :wink: You just say this now, cause the entire
issue with Numenor is that he wanted feedback, and then, some of you
must show the opposite attitude - of course.

Simple psychology.

[Feverish]

How come everyone always disagree with me?    I thought it was ok
to promote freesites, by saying, thank you for giving me this for free.
And to paysites: fuck you, i don't like your attitude.

If some of you do not want to be thanked for creating anything, ok by me. Just look at the thread: look at my creations and worship me. Don't people want any feedback on their creations? I'll remember the nicknames and ain't gonna say anything if you do not need any feedback. (Liers).  :wink: You just say this now, cause the entire
issue with Numenor is that he wanted feedback, and then, some of you
must show the opposite attitude - of course.

Simple psychology.

They didn't say they don't want to be thanked. They are saying that they don't need to be thanked to enjoy creating. I'm sure they appreciate whenever someone thanks them, but it isn't necessary for their ego. And the title of that thread, look at my creations and worship me, is a mock. Or maybe it was a Freudian slip. Who knows, who cares.