Numenor's Opinion of pay vs free

[mando]

How come everyone always disagree with me?    I thought it was ok
to promote freesites, by saying, thank you for giving me this for free.
And to paysites: fuck you, i don't like your attitude.

If some of you do not want to be thanked for creating anything, ok by me. Just look at the thread: look at my creations and worship me. Don't people want any feedback on their creations? I'll remember the nicknames and ain't gonna say anything if you do not need any feedback. (Liers).  :wink: You just say this now, cause the entire
issue with Numenor is that he wanted feedback, and then, some of you
must show the opposite attitude - of course.

Simple psychology.

Amazone, I think that's a bit unfair to think that those here are taking the opposite attitude simply because they feel that Numenor is being fussy or because they want to disagree with you (unless you are being sarcastic, which is more likely than not around these parts). Everyone (except Pescado, of course) appreciates thanks for their work, hobby or no. I don't think anyone was saying that they wouldn't appreciate it if people were kind enough to thank them. However they were merely pointing out that thanks were not the sole or the main reason for why they create CC, which I think is a fair statement. I don't think anyone was saying it for spite.

Edit: grammar error

[blackmars]

blackmars
I got that impression from your first post.
No i do not think that you are taking anything for granted. Your post with
"ass-kissing" were written when i wrote my post, and as a non-english, i use a bit more time to write. Kissing his ass? I don't think people do that.
Look at TSR and see how they kiss real assholes.

I've looked at TSR and that is just one big ass kiss orgy. Anyhow, if you got that impression then it shows that the written word does not often convey the emotion that seeing and hearing someone speak does.


If you read Numenor's essay and the polls he had they are skewered to his perception so that basically either people will agree with him or people won't. There is no gray area on his polls and I see that as him wanting to have his ego stroked so the mean "pirates" will take his tanning bed out of the booty and leave him be.

And Lorelei, I agree. I recently made a group of sims and it made me pleased to know that one person is out there enjoying them. They thanked me and that was good, but just knowing that someone is enjoying what I made is good enough.

[calalily]

But somehow, i wonder, was it really worth it, making Numenors file available in the booty? the results are: Delphy has locked the threads - most people do preciate MTS2 and Numenor, and they can turn even more against us cause of this. I am not sure this is the right way to kill paysites.

I think that his action of shutting down the forums has far more potential to say things about Delphy than it does about the booty, and political expedience.  I think that whatever action happens, it says something about the people who do it.

Just as keeping the file in the booty says something about us - i.e. no more fucking paysites.

[Ry]

Personally, shutting down those threads was the wrong move.
Alot of people were excited to finally be able to discuss the whole situation there, then to just lock 'em up makes no sense.
But new threads will be started, right?
Hopefully not by Numenor!
HP did a fantastic start of it the first time. She should get to give it a go at round 2.

[Saraswati]

Guys

You misunderstand me to a degree, which is partially my fault.. While I wish the booty wasn't there and I don't download from it because I'm not a pirate, if it has to be there all pay files have to be there. Because with your stance you can't show favouritism, otherwise noone will take you seriously..

And when it comes to Pescado, I kinda like the fact you know where you stand with him.. He goes for the throat because, well, that's his natural reaction.

Blackmars, my pulling you up was just because I know how the other side of the coin feels to a degree.. I was saying to Calaily offline, it sucked when Sims 2 came out, because most of us didn't know how to do this stuff. So we worshipped anyone who could do friggin' anything, and we held them in too much reverence. Things are much more democratic now, the "consumers" have become much more demanding with the paysites, which is their right. But they also turn the same behaviour on the free or mostly free creators. And when you're doing something just because you want to help out, that kind of attitude drives you up the wall and makes you want  to tell everyone to fuck off. Because if you're not getting paid and this isn't your job and everyone is yelling at you constantly (or it feels like that) why the hell would you bother helping others?

If we don't learn to be a little gentler with each other in the community, we're going to end up with no modding tools and no creativity when Sims 3 hits... Maybe that would suit Maxis, but I'm sure the rest of us would hate it.

By the way, I like it here.. this is one of the few places where I will argue with anyone, at all.

Angha

[Ensign EO]

When TS3 comes out creators are going to leave regardless because they can't make the leap from TS2--we saw it happen already, where creators who did fantastic stuff in TS1 couldn't cut it in TS2, or perhaps they just weren't interested.  Hell, not everyone can afford a computer that can run the game, and people tend to leave communities, especially when there are sequels and almost everyone is moving on.

But it wasn't the end of the world, even though most of the community had switched to the newer game and almost completely forgot about the old.  There were plenty of new creators who just showed up and had at TS2--so while we may lose a few creators during the transition, I do believe that there'll be plenty of new people who are willing to attempt to fill a few voids.

There will be people out there who will want to mod TS3, who will want to create for it.  They may not have been part of the TS2 or TS1 communities, but they will want to do it.  There's always someone who wants to do it.

If anyone gets irritated by a hobby, anyone who seriously get hurt and upset because of it, but continue to do it for whatever reason, then I say why the the hell are they beating themselves with a stick?  It's a game.  If you start crying because people are criticising the stuff you created, then you need to step away and do something else for a while.  I don't think the game or the creation of CC for the game is worth any serious drama.

[Saraswati]

Ensign EO, I actually did that, which is why I'm around and a lot quieter these days.. I think you might have missed my point. My point is that someone who has a good brain in their head and is creative and is only trying to help is the last person the Sims community wants to lose.. It's like shooting yourself in the foot.

[Ensign EO]

What's the harm in wanting people to improve, to avoid plateauing?  Isn't that just trying to help--letting people know that they can continue to better themselves and what they do?  If the creator is happy with their current level of work, great--they can ignore people's comments on how to improve instead of having a hissy fit about all the stress and horrors of being unappreciated.

I'm not particularly upset when a creator says, "Screw it, I'm leaving."  Like I said, I don't see the point in beating yourself with a stick--years from now none of this is going to matter much, so why let stupid things get to you that much?  No one is holding a gun to anyone's head and forcing them to create.  (Well, who knows about the paysites and their employees.)

[Saraswati]

I actually don't mind a constructive critique at all, I have one or two people that I turn to regularly for impartial advice. There's a big difference however between a constructive critique and a complete stranger turning up at your site and going "you suck because you don't do custom meshes".. That's just someone who has no damn right sticking their nose in your business and who is acting like an ungrateful two-year-old. As far as I'm concerned, if you run or make stuff for a totally free site, if someone doesn't like your stuff you point and tell them, there's the door.. You don't actually have to make anyone happy but you and the people you work with on your site. Because if you're doing it to make anyone but you happy, it stops being a hobby.

Having walked out the door myself, I think doing that is actually important, and I think the community should freak out about it a bit less than they do.. Things can get very heated, people can burn out for a bit and they need to go do something else. Then if they come back, it's a bonus.

[neriana]

If we don't learn to be a little gentler with each other in the community, we're going to end up with no modding tools and no creativity when Sims 3 hits...

No we won't. People will come along and fill in the gaps -- though honestly, what gaps? Peggy? Boo friggin' hoo. Hopefully these people won't expect payment in any form for their hobby, because they'll be more like people in every other game modding community I've ever seen. The Sims community is an aberration. (It's also an aberration in how incredibly nasty some people regularly are to each other, but I think that's largely a reaction to the disgusting ass-kissing that goes on.)

Oh, also, didn't RGiles help create the CEP in the first place? I know Numenor's the only one working on it now, but he seems to be getting all the credit for it, which isn't right.

Look, either you do something for the fun of doing it, and share it because you get a kick out of sharing it, or you're doing it with the expectation of getting something from people. The latter is an atrocious reason to pursue a hobby. There are people who agree with that statement, and people who don't; and I think that's the biggest divide in this community.

[Quinctia]

Fuck being gentle, anyway.  Who wants to be in a community that caters to 12-year old fanbrats?

The community's already full to the brim with fake niceness, and the effect you see is thus:  if anyone holds a belief contrary to a creator, their world-view apparently shatters around them, and they flounce off and go home.  If people had acted like honest human beings from the get-go, maybe everyone would've developed some thicker skins and would be acting their age.

[Saraswati]

Quinctia, one half of your statement is right, the other half is totally over the top. It's this "fuck being gentle" stuff.. It's not just the 12 year old fanbrats who like a bit of peace and quiet most of the time, most of the community do.

While a proportion of people in the community play the politics and like the argument, what most people in the community is to come back home from their often really difficult lives and have a bit of escape. While they don't mind constructive suggestions, riding roughshod over someone is the last thing they want. And if you go down the path where we all yell and scream at each other all the damn time, this stops being a hobby.. which is the accusation we frequently throw at sites like TSR, with reason.

There's a sensible middle ground in all of this.. There's a place for a bit of decent honesty where you can say "you did this bit well but this bit didn't quite work" as opposed to tearing someone down. And if we swing from the fake crap I've seen people pull where we have to give each other 5* for everything and go "cool" to a situation where everything becomes open warfare including the bits that really don't need to be, the community isn't any better off. It's just a different kind of absolutely dreadful. And it's not any more grown up either.

[Quinctia]

The problem is, to someone that has never received criticism, anything that's not overwhelmingly positive, is considered a horrible, terrible thing.  It doesn't matter how nice you try to be, they don't want to hear it, and you can burn in hell.  And there's no way you can justify it, because you were lying, essentially, to be as nice as you were in the first place.  I'm not saying go around and undeservedly flame the pants off of people, but I'm saying that it's not really a good thing to keep the kid gloves on all of the time.

Seriously.  Considering the amount of teenage fic writers I've won over with my policy of brutal honesty tempered with the praise for things done right, I think I've found a decent way to go about it.  Of course, fandom hasn't been cultivating a cult of nice wholesale, either.  But hell yes, fuck being gentle, because it makes the praise that much more worth it.  You'll have to deal with tantrums, and that's messy and a pain, but if you hold your own, and explain yourself, you'll generally win people over.  Some people will NEVER be able to cope with honesty, but they wouldn't cope with anything less than excessive ass-kissing in the first place.  

But that's really the stem of this problem with Numenor.  He's not getting his way, and he's throwing a tantrum.  And this is a guy who's gotten tons of praise, adoration, thanks, and donations tossed his way, for a site that doesn't even host anything.  I don't begrudge him any of this, up to the point where his entitlement complex has overgrown his head.

[Lorelei]

amazone: I think you have missed this sarcasm level on this site.

We're pirates, even though we don't actually "pirate" any content, we buy it and file-share it. There are a few exceptions, but, typically, any actual sharing in the "pirate" sense is done through PMs, and I haven't seen any threads on OMBD offering EA Games' property for free.

We have a "worship me and my creations" thread, although we don't want or expect worship, and some of us are aware we are not the best creators within the community. If I recall correctly, that thread was started as a poke at self-important creators who think their efforts deserve paid reward or grovelling and ass-kissing.

We talk about sharing rum and cookies, but I still have to go buy my own.

There's a level of whimsy and sarcasm here that may be flying over your head, if you are misinterpreting our lingo and slang and believing it to be serious.

The only thing we are serious about is complying with the EULA and making sure all custom content is available to anyone.

[Pescado]

No we won't. People will come along and fill in the gaps -- though honestly, what gaps? Peggy?

What are you talking about? Peggy has lots of gaps! Have you SEEN some of the crap she's peddling?