To Those with Legal Understanding, or Even an Opinion..

[Paden]

What follows is sheer speculation based upon some facts dug up while leafing through the husband's Game Informer Magazine, August 2007 issue in case any of you want to check it out as well.

EA has recently announced plans to split their game publishing into four divisions entitled EA Games, EA Casual Entertainment, EA Sports, and The Sims.

That was on the very last page, up in the right hand section of the page in a box called the Breakdown. But, if this is true, it could explain why in the hell the company has it's head up it's collective ass at the moment regarding the controversy we are involved in. They are rearranging. They aren't sure where in the hell everything actually fits in. They could well be taking names and such and getting ready to kick some asses once the Sims 2 is into their very own brand new division. You know, the "we've got our shit sorted, now let's kick some dumb fucker's ass cause I'm tired of all the e-mails I get every week about it," kind of thing. Of course, if they were going to sue just on the basis of how ugly paysite owners are, well, Thomass is going to bear the brunt of the whole damn thing. I sure hope to God that he hasn't contributed to the gene pool because his portion of it is in need of some serious bleach work...

[that1chica]

I hope I'm in the right spot because it makes sense that it would be:

http://s95147669.onlinehome.us/beosboxboy/

the last entry. I hope it has not been posted somewhere else for fear of the plank...

[keirra]

I saw that last month.  It's interesting that he included Pescado and how they agree.  My favorite part, though, was "No more to come"  :lol:

[Hecubus]

I bet you're all surprised I have an opinion on the corporate changes.

(Shut up! Lemme talk!)

I once worked for a major aerospace manufacturer - the company is made up of many former competitors, so you can imagine the variety of processes, knowledge, etc. I imagine the same thing is happening at EA as it swallows up smaller game companies, like Maxis.

Now there is always a time of initial acceptance when the company is first bought - usually the employees who 'come along' are allowed to keep going as they were, with gradual policy differences (and usually a massive HR nightmare as insurance, pay, etc. gets settled). But at some point, it becomes important for them to become part of the greater whole.

And usually that time is about when a new CEO is brought in to get things running RIGHT.

This happened at EA, with the hiring of John Riccitiello. Riccitiello's known as someone who can come in and get everyone on the same page and on the right track...so I would assume that the reorganization was to take away the lines that had built based on company loyalty (the maxoids v. ea)...and make everyone work together, dammit.

So...the reorg makes perfect sense, and I would bet dollars to donuts there are people who were never IN The Sims group or even Maxis who are leading some of these teams. They're working on a new model of procedures/customer contact, thus we see some nebulous statements from customer support, and as I explained elsewhere, they're probably trying to speak with ONE voice for a change, and until they know what that voice says, they need to keep 'pronouncements' to a minimum.

Now....why is it taking EA so long to review data regarding paysites? That's easy. I suspect that (a) they only have one lawyer/paralegal on it, (b) they are actually investigating financial records as well as the sites themselves, and (c) they are gathering case law regarding license and copyright violations to see if there is precedence, and if not, how to build a case/suit/court order based on what does exist.

I'd say that has little to do with the actual reorg and more to do with the law. It seems like forever for us, but really, the big question that has sparked their investigation wasn't asked until late May...not that long ago.

So...corporate culture clashes meet major reorganization with a little typical legal process thrown in....and thus, we sit grinding our gears, fighting, and settling absolutely nothing.

Well, except for the fact that some members of this community are either twats, perverts, or fucking nuts.  :twisted:

[ratfink]

litigation is expensive. so, in order to litigate against paysites, EA must choose between 2 evils.

1 is doing nothing. are paysites actually harming EA? not that i can see. EA is not responsible for what fansites do, and requires a disclaimer to be placed on each such website.

2 is litigating. paysites are everywhere, not only in the USA as we know. so this means appointing lots of lawyers all over the planet, then getting details of all paysites including company details and addresses. some sites belong to individuals, some to companies. (this usually means doing a company search because here we have to cite the details of incorporation and place of business of the defendant if it is a company)

There is of course option number 3:
Strategically hit the 10 largest and most popular abusers.   Once injunctions have been granted against these sites the rest will probably cave rather fast with simple C&D notices or DMCA notices to the ISPs.

then, assuming the litigation is successful. what damages is EA going to prove? as i said, maybe nothing. in my country we do not have such a thing as punitive damages, a successful litigant only gets actual damages proved plus costs according to a tariff. this is usually about a third to half the actual costs.

Actual damages really aren't all that important, what is however important is getting an injunction filed against the site.   Regardless in the US at least you can file your court and lawyer costs under actual damages.

However I suspect if they do sue these places the arguments would likely hone around the fact that selling the objects is unfair competition and dilutes their trademarks.  Using tools developed under their R&D dime to create commercial content that competes directly with their object booster packs.  Not to say that would be an easy case to prove, but I believe it is doable.

in my experience, some companies disappear in mysterious ways when faced by a huge bill of costs. they stop trading and declare themselves bankrupt. then it is risky for creditors trying to get anything out of them.

It's very hard for companies to just disappear when they have fixed assets (the content itself as an asset).  When a company goes into bankruptcy they have to auction off all of the company assets otherwise they could go to spend some time in club fed for embezzlement.  The best content could be bid on by EA itself (since really it is only them they would be of any use to) and be sold in object packs, expansions, etc themselves.

[ratfink]

Now....why is it taking EA so long to review data regarding paysites? That's easy. I suspect that (a) they only have one lawyer/paralegal on it, (b) they are actually investigating financial records as well as the sites themselves, and (c) they are gathering case law regarding license and copyright violations to see if there is precedence, and if not, how to build a case/suit/court order based on what does exist.

Not to mention (d) They don't want to fuck it up.  These cases aren't going to be clear cut and failing on the first case can spell serious problems if not disaster for any subsequent cases.

[Soup Parrot]

I feel angry to Renegade at EA. I think the whole wait and see game, seems mute to me. My observation is EA needs the numbers for marketing to corporations like Ford (the free cars are paid advertisements), to Visa Corp, H & M, who knows whos next but they have movie rights sold which will include more than likely other licensed agreements with toymakers, etc. They need the numbers to sell more franchise deals. They need the  custom content sites free or pay to draw in new customers. The more of these deals they make, they increase revuenue to buy other games, or bail out their games that lost profit. Plus they need money for the development of Spore, which from online videos I get the impression they want to to make into a franchise to.

SOOO My issue is we can talk and talk about this issue, write letters, and wait. What if Sims 3 comes and nothings changed? What if they give these paysites the content maker and license agreement that took advantage of the sims 2 Community? Can you stomach that ? I as a consumer here in America, feel as there are children (under 15 involved) in our population feel we have a right to see Ea's official position, in a clear language that  even someone under 15 can understand, it should be in the game pak booklets and on the site highly visible. I dont agree with Beos's June 27th  essay that consumers here in the US dont have rights. We most certailnly do. WE can either play wait and see, and talk till we're blue in the face in circles, write letters. Or we can REALIZE we should be angry at EA too for contributing to the mess and allowing it to esculate. You cant look at what they say, but what they do. They wrote an article saying they invited their top fansite back, TSR. Now they just endorsed the site, players going to see that and think its okay to subscribe there. I know some of you have talked to the CEO of EA. They lie. my parents had a situation several years back that involved a large cable network. They had met with the owner and his lawyers face to face, they lied nothing changed after that meeting which was a face to face. Look at what they do not what they say!!! When we realize that we have rights, here in America we can go lots of places to enlist help, there are lots of consumer protection organizations. I have places I will be inquiring for help, may even try my State's Attorney's office to. I encourage all you to look to other channels, even Boycotting Sims 3.

[Pescado]

I fail to see where EA has done anything "wrong" in this case. Yes, they have thus far failed to take any specific action against paysites, but we all know that the corporate machine moves at a glacial pace. As this matter doesn't COST them anything, there is likely no compelling reason for them to hurry, given that the status quo works fine for everyone involved.

[MizzKitty]

So it stops being ok when they start losing money. I wonder how many boycut their stuff packs and expansion packs because they're unhappy. And I really wonder how many will boycut TS3.

I, myself, haven't the willpower to boycut the EPs but as it looks I won't even consider TS3 as an option. It would surprise me if I were alone in this... I wonder if enough will react this way to make a difference. After all, the community is not that great a percentage of the consumers...  :roll:

[angelyne]

From the outside looking in, as I am not neck-deep in the sims community, I actually fail to understand what all the fuss is about.  Why do people care so much about pay sites.  There is certainly enough free content and free sites so people never need to pay.

Personally I don't agree with sites which try to make their living selling sims content.  Making a little money to pay for bandwidth is one thing, trying to make it your main source of income is another. But even when that's the case, I don't care enough to be the slightest bit angry about it.  I don't even care enough to boycott a site, if there is something there I want.  Why is everyone so freaking passionate about it??  You'd think that pay sites are sweat shops, or use child labor, or deal in the white trade. Now those are things to get upset about and boycott.

Anyway.  The whole debate seems to have produced some good results.  Made people reconsider.  Stopped or slowed the slow drifting of content to pay sites. That was a real concern. We can thank MTS2 for being such a strong counterforce to that.  Thanks to PMBD for making pay sites less exclusive and less attractive to run.

There is only one thing I am sure of.  If people make so much noise that they prod  EA to act, everyone will be unhappy.  Be careful of what you wish for.  For those who think that EA will simply sue pay sites and leave free sites alone, I have some nice land in Florida to sell you.  

To paraphrase beoboxboy in one of the link above...(go read it, that post rocked) don't wake the sleeping giant.

[Wrinkly Willy]

Just some random thoughts:

Often in these threads, I see posts asking 'why so long' or 'think of the cost' when disscussing why EA hasn't done anything.  As many have stated already, the 'communities' of other mod-able games do NOT tolerate pay sites, the publishing companies will not tolerate them.  And when one does pop up, all it usualy takes is a 'cease and desist' letter to the site owner, or their provider, to bring such things to an end.  So if EA were really serious, they could close down 99% of the pay sites within a week.  Most sites do not have the finacial backing to go up against EA, even if they truly believed they would win.
Sadly, I have come to the conclusion that EA/Maxis (either or both) put the 'no pay sites' clause in their EULA 'just in case'.  They don't feel the need to use it at this time, and may have some worry that if they did enforce it, they might loose some future revenue.

Some of the advantages to creating a mod-able game are; it extends the life cycle of the game, increases the fan base, and reduces the amount of production for the game itself.  Seriously, how many people would have stayed with Sims or Sims2 as long as they did if the only content was what shipped with the games and the EPs?  How well would the EPs have sold?

EA may fear, that if they crack down on pay sites, they will eliminate a lot of the custom content, and/or the incentive for custom content.  They may not have a realistic 'picture' of the content and creators out there.  It also may be a low priority of theirs, they are releasing what may well be the last or next-to-last EP for Sims2 before they push Sims3.  And don't forget, they have many other titles as well.

Hell, they may be even thinking of a 'franchise' arrangement in the future- allowing a paysite for Sims3 in exchange for a 'cut' of the proceeds.  If they crush paysites now, it will be harder to do that in the future.  Or they could be looking at perhaps their biggest 'life game' competitor, Second Life, which ENCOURAGES the sale of custom content.  If that model works well, EA may well go that route.

ETA:  Addressing the 'fear' that a crack down on pay sites will 'spill over' into a crack down on free sites, the history of 'mod-able games' shows this not to be valid, when ever a crack down did occur, the free sites were left alone.  The only exceptions I ever saw were crack downs on 'adult' content, but that is  a completely different thing.  And, as I stated above, no custom content would mean much less revenue for the game.

[dietofworms]

Hell, they may be even thinking of a 'franchise' arrangement in the future- allowing a paysite for Sims3 in exchange for a 'cut' of the proceeds.  If they crush paysites now, it will be harder to do that in the future.  Or they could be looking at perhaps their biggest 'life game' competitor, Second Life, which ENCOURAGES the sale of custom content.  If that model works well, EA may well go that route.
/

*mutters darkly

I wouldn't be surprised if that was already going on.  A site doesn't get to be "number one fansite" for no reason.

Great post, Freed Willy.  I agree that EA doesn't have  whole lot of incentive right now to do anything regarding Sims2.

[alia]

Well, if EA is going to take advantage of TSR and other paysites in the form of franchising, things will still look better for the customers. If EA is the entity behind the paysites, then the customers can file a complaint and also get refunds if the final product does not meet the standards one would expect, e.g. if a hair has gaps that are not visible in the screenshot or if a preview shot has been sharpened to hell.

I'm still hoping that this is not the direction they'll be taking, but still, it would be an improvement to the current situation where the customer has no rights whatsoever.

[angelyne]

Good points Willy.

But what about the fact that most of the tools creators use to mod the game involve reverse engineering and that is clearly against the EULA.  Is it completely unreasonable that if they crack down on sites that break their EULA, they will also address the issue of tools like SimPE ?

I dunno, it's like having the eye of Sauron on you.  I rather they look the other way.

[simminggramma]

From The Great Paysite Debate at S2C:


http://forums.sims2community.com/showthread.php?p=974264#post974264

post #304 and post #309